Chargers @ Browns 12-6-09

• Cleveland Buck

  

  Quinn deserves a chance with some NFL players around him. The Browns need a bona fide NFL RB, a right side for the offensive line, a #1 wideout, and 7 or 8 new starters on defense (I want Ndamukong Suh #1 overall even if that means changing away from the 3-4 on D).
• DaBrowns41

  LTrain23 wrote:

  DaBrowns41 wrote: Man, Massoquoi gives 2 piss poor efforts on one drive after two pretty nice throws, and Robo makes a nice play on the ball, but drops it in the end zone after a bad decision to throw off his back foot by Quinn.
  
  If only this QB had play makers.

  Yeah, Massaquoi needs to give better effort on throws like that, but he's still a rookie. It's a learning experience for him..
  
  Robo made a hell of a play on that ball as it should have been picked and he damn near came down with the TD.
  
  I like what I've seen from Robo.

  Yeah, I'm not going to bust Mo Mass's chops too much because he's still a rookie, but all season long, he's been getting nice balls thrown his way and he just watches it come to him.
  
  Productive WR's make plays on the ball, and he needs to learn that.
  
  Quinn made a somewhat nice throw off of his feet, but I'd rather him throw it away in that situation. But at least Robo looked very solid.
  
  I'm glad the coaches finally gave him a chance.
  
  With some play makers on offense, Brady Quinn could do well, IMO. He's beginning to look like an NFL QB, regardless of what some "Browns fans" think.
  
  If this team wants to improve, they will go defense in the first round in a draft filled with nothing but defensive studs, and very few offensive studs.
• SportsAndLady

  

  I say the Browns take Suh and change to the 4-3. Can you imagine a D-line with Suh and Rogers? They'd be nasty.
  
  Then I say they take a WR with their 2nd pick..I mean their receivers are just lousy.
  
  Then I say they take a corner/safety to improve that secondary..get McDonald out of there
• hoops23

  

  newarkcatholicfan wrote: Seeing that Cleveland got beat again makes the beginning of the Dallas falling apart in December a little easier to live with.

  lol, you live a sad life.
• royal_k

  

  newarkcatholicfan wrote: Seeing that Cleveland got beat again makes the beginning of the Dallas falling apart in December a little easier to live with.

  Seeing your ass trolling Browns threads makes everyone right about you.
• hoops23

  

  I'd take either Eric Berry or Suh 1st.
  
  I'm in love with Eric Berry. He's relentless.
• Mulva

  

  Beginning to look like an NFL QB? He went 15/34 just last week for 100 yards! (2.94 yards per attempt).
  
  Coming into today:
  
  QB rating: 27th
  Completion percentage: 29th
  Yards per attempt: 31st
  TD/INT ratio: 28th (and that's with the Jr. high caliber Lions secondary boosting his stats)
  
  He definitely looked good today. The best I've seen him look.
  
  That said, he looked horrible last week. He looked horrible against the Ravens his first game back as starter. He played progressively worse in each of the 1st 3 games this year before being benched. And again, the Lions are the Lions. I don't think anyone is crazy enough to be sold on a QB based on a good game against them.
  
  He isn't the only problem, I don't think he's even the biggest problem (right side of the O-line is much more pressing), but he IS still a problem.
  
  In my opinion, thinking they might not need a new QB based on 1 or 2 good games is one of the worst things this team could possibly do heading into the offseason, especially when the other games are as bad as they have been.
• DaBrowns41

  Cleveland Buck wrote: Quinn deserves a chance with some NFL players around him. The Browns need a bona fide NFL RB, a right side for the offensive line, a #1 wideout, and 7 or 8 new starters on defense (I want Ndamukong Suh #1 overall even if that means changing away from the 3-4 on D).

  Suh would be my first choice as well, as we end the regular college season.
  
  My big board for our first pick is Suh, G. McCoy, Berry, McClain, Haden, Hughes.
  
  Either way, we need to get a play maker on defense to go with Rogers and all of those guys would help out immensely.
  
  Suh would be just fine in a 34 defense as a DE, so we don't have to worry. Think Luis Castillo/Ty Warren. Gerald McCoy compares more to Richard Seymour.
  
  Eric Berry would help out a lot, especially today when we had two guys covering a TE and still get beat multiple times.
  
  Rolando McClain is a top 5 worthy linebacker, but linebackers just don't go top 5 anymore. Pair him up with D'Qwell inside and the run defense will be helped greatly.
  
  Joe Haden and Eric Wright as our starting cornerbacks would take a LOT of pressure off of our safeties.
  
  Jerry "Sackmaster" Hughes paired up with Wimbley could cause hell for QB's.
• DaBrowns41

  Mulva wrote: Beginning to look like an NFL QB? He went 15/34 just last week for 100 yards! (2.94 yards per attempt).
  
  Coming into today:
  
  QB rating: 27th
  Completion percentage: 29th
  Yards per attempt: 31st
  TD/INT ratio: 28th (and that's with the Jr. high caliber Lions secondary boosting his stats)
  
  He definitely looked good today. The best I've seen him look.
  
  That said, he looked horrible last week. He looked horrible against the Ravens his first game back as starter. He played progressively worse in each of the 1st 3 games this year before being benched. And again, the Lions are the Lions. I don't think anyone is crazy enough to be sold on a QB based on a good game against them.
  
  He isn't the only problem, I don't think he's even the biggest problem (right side of the O-line is much more pressing), but he IS still a problem.
  
  In my opinion, thinking they might not need a new QB based on 1 or 2 good games is one of the worst things this team could possibly do heading into the offseason, especially when the other games are as bad as they have been.

  So with 7-8 drops last game, do you think Jimmy Clausen, or Drew Brees, or Peyton Manning would have been better?
  
  How can a QB play better when the ball hits his receivers in the hands.
  
  Yes, he's not being completely accurate, but this is still his first season getting snaps.
  
  When you're RB is Jamal Lewis/Chris Jennings/Jerome Harrison, you don't get anything going on the ground.
  
  Defenses don't have to blitz to get to our QB. They just can rush 4, maybe 5 guys and get to us because John St. Clair is like a revolving door. In turn, that leaves 6-7 guys out to cover 3-4 wide receivers. You'd have trouble finding an open target as well.
  
  Derek Anderson was a big problem, constantly throwing at people's feet, over their head.
  
  Except for Joe Thomas blowing his block and getting Quinn sacked for a fumble, that's the only big turnover Quinn has had lately. Yes, he had two INT's against Baltimore, but neither were his fault, considering the ball bounced right off the receivers hands.
  
  Unlike Anderson, Quinn is safe with the ball (except for the near pick 6 that Cooper could have had). Point is, he's not throwing into double coverage, he's not making bad throws.
  
  Is he dumping the ball off a bit much? Sure, but I'd rather gain 3-4 yards on a play than get an incomplete pass or interception because we want to throw it to Massoquoi who doesn't try for the ball in double coverage.
  
  When you have no play makers around you, it's hard to put up points. We put up 23 points today against a very good defense with nothing.
  
  We don't need a QB just yet. Even if QB was 100% our problem, studies have been proven that rookie QB's bust 95% more when they have 1 or less play makers on offense, so I'd rather develop our guys and get a play maker in the draft before we even think about another QB.
• Gobuckeyes1

  I think this was Quinn's 9th or 10th start of his career? It looks like the game is slowing down for him and he is making better decisions and throwing down the field with more confidence. He just has below average (and that's being nice) people to throw to. Like I said after the Detroit game...when you put him on the field against a team with comparable talent, he is fine. Right now playing QB for the Browns is like taking a knife to a gun fight, especially against teams like SD.
• Cleveland Buck

  

  Mulva wrote: Beginning to look like an NFL QB? He went 15/34 just last week for 100 yards! (2.94 yards per attempt).
  
  Coming into today:
  
  QB rating: 27th
  Completion percentage: 29th
  Yards per attempt: 31st
  TD/INT ratio: 28th (and that's with the Jr. high caliber Lions secondary boosting his stats)
  
  He definitely looked good today. The best I've seen him look.
  
  That said, he looked horrible last week. He looked horrible against the Ravens his first game back as starter. He played progressively worse in each of the 1st 3 games this year before being benched. And again, the Lions are the Lions. I don't think anyone is crazy enough to be sold on a QB based on a good game against them.
  
  He isn't the only problem, I don't think he's even the biggest problem (right side of the O-line is much more pressing), but he IS still a problem.
  
  In my opinion, thinking they might not need a new QB based on 1 or 2 good games is one of the worst things this team could possibly do heading into the offseason, especially when the other games are as bad as they have been.

  Today was like Quinn's 9th or 10th start. He is still almost a rookie, and zero help around him. If you get some good players around him next year and he has almost a full season of starting experience, and he still throws for less than 100 yards several times, then he has to go, but it certainly looks like he is developing, throwing 8 TDs in the last three games, with the least amount of offensive talent anywhere in the NFL.
• hoops23

  

  Yeah, just as you think it's unfair to judge a QB after two or 3 good games, Mulva, it's also unfair to judge one without a bigger sample size.
  
  I don't just look at stats when evaluating a young QB on a bad team. I look at poise and improvement. Both of which BQ has been showing much more recently.
  
  He had some crisp throws downfield today and lead the huddle pretty well. I also liked his footwork and it doesn't seem like he is settling for the check downs anymore.
• Gobuckeyes1

  Quinn is clearly improving...7 TD and 2 INT in his last 4 games with this offense is respectable.
  
  His completion % needs to improve, but some of that is dropped passes.
• royal_k

  

  Like I said before, give him the rest of the season. If he continues to improve and play like he did today, than it will be a lot easier to draft next year. He looked like a different QB today.
  
  Oh, and saying the game he had against the Lions was just the Lions is a bit misleading. Look at Carson palmers stats today.
  220 yds 1 TD 2 Ints and 1 fumble.....Not close to what Quinn did with a much better supporting cast.
• Mulva

  

  DaBrowns41 wrote: So with 7-8 drops last game, do you think Jimmy Clausen, or Drew Brees, or Peyton Manning would have been better?
  
  No, yes, yes. I don't want anything to do with Jimmy Clausen.
  
  How can a QB play better when the ball hits his receivers in the hands.
  
  He has made plenty of poor throws. Just about every throw he attempts more than 20 yards down field (actually, more like 15) is awful. That's why his yards/attempt is so poor. Check down after check down. Again, he looked good today, but I'm going by the whole body of work. You will never hear me say our receivers are good, but if you honestly think Peyton Manning wouldn't put up better numbers than Quinn has there is no reason for me to even respond to you.
  
  Yes, he's not being completely accurate, but this is still his first season getting snaps.
  
  This is his 3rd season. The fact that it's taken him as long as it has to win the job away from Derek Anderson is pretty telling to me. And even after he won it, he managed to lose it right back. The fact that it's his first season getting snaps is because he wasn't good enough to get any before. And the only reason he is getting them now is because Anderson was the worst QB in the NFL this season.
  
  When you're RB is Jamal Lewis/Chris Jennings/Jerome Harrison, you don't get anything going on the ground.
  
  Just to get back to Peyton Manning for a second, the Jamal Lewis/Harrison combo has significantly more yards and the same ypc average as Jospeh Addai. Just saying.
  
  Defenses don't have to blitz to get to our QB. They just can rush 4, maybe 5 guys and get to us because John St. Clair is like a revolving door. In turn, that leaves 6-7 guys out to cover 3-4 wide receivers. You'd have trouble finding an open target as well.
  
  Derek Anderson was a big problem, constantly throwing at people's feet, over their head.
  
  See, this is where you get ridiculous, because the receivers led the league in drops with DA at quarterback too. It's a total double standard. But I'm not making an argument for him at all. We need a new QB. And I already said the right side of the O-line is a bigger problem, so no need to address that part.
  
  Except for Joe Thomas blowing his block and getting Quinn sacked for a fumble, that's the only big turnover Quinn has had lately. Yes, he had two INT's against Baltimore, but neither were his fault, considering the ball bounced right off the receivers hands.
  
  Unlike Anderson, Quinn is safe with the ball (except for the near pick 6 that Cooper could have had). Point is, he's not throwing into double coverage, he's not making bad throws.
  
  He's made plenty of bad throws. You are choosing to overlook them. Again, go back and watch the Bengals tape. It was only 1 week ago.
  
  Is he dumping the ball off a bit much? Sure
  
  Understatement of the year
  
  , but I'd rather gain 3-4 yards on a play than get an incomplete pass or interception because we want to throw it to Massoquoi who doesn't try for the ball in double coverage.
  
  When you have no play makers around you, it's hard to put up points. We put up 23 points today against a very good defense with nothing.
  
  We don't need a QB just yet. Even if QB was 100% our problem, studies have been proven that rookie QB's bust 95% more when they have 1 or less play makers on offense, so I'd rather develop our guys and get a play maker in the draft before we even think about another QB.

  I don't want to draft a QB either. I'm not sold on any of them (I actually like Bradford a lot, but his injuries aren't worth the risk). Jason Campbell or Tavaris Jackson in free agency, or a trade would be just fine with me.
  
  It's been painfully obvious all season that nobody on this team is the answer at QB, and a 4-game pattern of bad, good, bad, good isn't changing my mind.
  
  Bruce Gradkowski managed to light up the Steelers today, so we'll see if Brady can put up some numbers again next week. It's going to take consistently good play the rest of the way to sell me on him being a part of the answer going forward.
• fourfourtwo

  Jason Campbell or Tavaris Jackson? They were their team's weak links with NFL caliber supporting casts were they not? At least Quinn is young and has a chance to get better. Peyton Manning won one game his rookie year, it's a good thing the organization gave him a chance to grow and improve by playing. Brady is certainly not Peyton, but if he develops some consistancy in the last 4 games with the scrap heap around him, I'd say he definately needs a chance to continue to prove himself.
• fourfourtwo

  As bad as the Browns have been, wasn't their defense making strides before being turned into swiss cheese by injuries? I was expecting a blow out today and the team actually looked prepared and enthusiastic about playing, just much less talented than San Diego. This is a young team and should get younger if they draft some young talent with their 11 picks. The biggest question in my mind is not the QB, the RB, the DB, or the WR. It is the CEO. If there is no vision, structure, plan and commitment in place from the guys not on the field, then they might as well throw darts at the wall on draft day and hope some turn out. The 11 picks will be a waste, even if they were all in the first 2 rounds. The most important off-season acquisition will be in the front office.
• DaBrowns41

  fourfourtwo wrote: As bad as the Browns have been, wasn't their defense making strides before being turned into swiss cheese by injuries? I was expecting a blow out today and the team actually looked prepared and enthusiastic about playing, just much less talented than San Diego. This is a young team and should get younger if they draft some young talent with their 11 picks. The biggest question in my mind is not the QB, the RB, the DB, or the WR. It is the CEO. If there is no vision, structure, plan and commitment in place from the guys not on the field, then they might as well throw darts at the wall on draft day and hope some turn out. The 11 picks will be a waste, even if they were all in the first 2 rounds. The most important off-season acquisition will be in the front office.

  You'll see the structure next season when Parcells is brought in, keeps Mangini and brings in Charlie Weis as OC.
• DaBrowns41

  Mulva wrote:

  DaBrowns41 wrote: So with 7-8 drops last game, do you think Jimmy Clausen, or Drew Brees, or Peyton Manning would have been better?
  
  No, yes, yes. I don't want anything to do with Jimmy Clausen.
  
  How can a QB play better when the ball hits his receivers in the hands.
  
  He has made plenty of poor throws. Just about every throw he attempts more than 20 yards down field (actually, more like 15) is awful. That's why his yards/attempt is so poor. Check down after check down. Again, he looked good today, but I'm going by the whole body of work. You will never hear me say our receivers are good, but if you honestly think Peyton Manning wouldn't put up better numbers than Quinn has there is no reason for me to even respond to you.
  
  Yes, he's not being completely accurate, but this is still his first season getting snaps.
  
  This is his 3rd season. The fact that it's taken him as long as it has to win the job away from Derek Anderson is pretty telling to me. And even after he won it, he managed to lose it right back. The fact that it's his first season getting snaps is because he wasn't good enough to get any before. And the only reason he is getting them now is because Anderson was the worst QB in the NFL this season.
  
  When you're RB is Jamal Lewis/Chris Jennings/Jerome Harrison, you don't get anything going on the ground.
  
  Just to get back to Peyton Manning for a second, the Jamal Lewis/Harrison combo has significantly more yards and the same ypc average as Jospeh Addai. Just saying.
  
  Defenses don't have to blitz to get to our QB. They just can rush 4, maybe 5 guys and get to us because John St. Clair is like a revolving door. In turn, that leaves 6-7 guys out to cover 3-4 wide receivers. You'd have trouble finding an open target as well.
  
  Derek Anderson was a big problem, constantly throwing at people's feet, over their head.
  
  See, this is where you get ridiculous, because the receivers led the league in drops with DA at quarterback too. It's a total double standard. But I'm not making an argument for him at all. We need a new QB. And I already said the right side of the O-line is a bigger problem, so no need to address that part.
  
  Except for Joe Thomas blowing his block and getting Quinn sacked for a fumble, that's the only big turnover Quinn has had lately. Yes, he had two INT's against Baltimore, but neither were his fault, considering the ball bounced right off the receivers hands.
  
  Unlike Anderson, Quinn is safe with the ball (except for the near pick 6 that Cooper could have had). Point is, he's not throwing into double coverage, he's not making bad throws.
  
  He's made plenty of bad throws. You are choosing to overlook them. Again, go back and watch the Bengals tape. It was only 1 week ago.
  
  Is he dumping the ball off a bit much? Sure
  
  Understatement of the year
  
  , but I'd rather gain 3-4 yards on a play than get an incomplete pass or interception because we want to throw it to Massoquoi who doesn't try for the ball in double coverage.
  
  When you have no play makers around you, it's hard to put up points. We put up 23 points today against a very good defense with nothing.
  
  We don't need a QB just yet. Even if QB was 100% our problem, studies have been proven that rookie QB's bust 95% more when they have 1 or less play makers on offense, so I'd rather develop our guys and get a play maker in the draft before we even think about another QB.

  I don't want to draft a QB either. I'm not sold on any of them (I actually like Bradford a lot, but his injuries aren't worth the risk). Jason Campbell or Tavaris Jackson in free agency, or a trade would be just fine with me.
  
  It's been painfully obvious all season that nobody on this team is the answer at QB, and a 4-game pattern of bad, good, bad, good isn't changing my mind.
  
  Bruce Gradkowski managed to light up the Steelers today, so we'll see if Brady can put up some numbers again next week. It's going to take consistently good play the rest of the way to sell me on him being a part of the answer going forward.

  You're judging every aspect of a QB who's just finally getting his chance to start consecutive games for a 1-11 football team.
  
  Go and read my blog. You'll see the trend in QB's since 1999 drafted in the first round and bust rates.
  
  QB's that had 2 or more play makers succeeded- All of them, for the most part.
  
  QB's that had 1 or 0 play makers busted, except the jury is still out on Jason Campbell.
  
  Even Peyton Manning had play makers his rookie season in Marvin Harrison and Marshall Faulk.
  
  You can't expect great things out of a QB who doesn't have help.
  
  Given the circumstances, Quinn is doing pretty well. The biggest thing is that he's limiting turnovers. 3 of his 5 INT's this season are balls that literally bounced off of his receivers hands. If Furrey catches that ball in Baltimore, they don't get a pick 6.
  
  I know it's a lot of what if's, so I'll try to stop with that.
  
  The Cincy game wasn't good for Quinn. He was forcing throws, he was inaccurate, but the Detroit game, and the San Diego game, he was virtually flawless. He made maybe 2 errant throws today.
  
  If Mo Mass goes after the ball, either of them in our last drive, we get a 30+ yard play. Quinn has thrown the deep ball quite well with the exception of the very end of the Ravens game.
  
  With Quinn having 10 starts, he's got 10 TD's and 7 INT's. Manning threw more INT's than TD's and completed around 55% of his passes in his first full season of playing, and he had an All-Pro RB and a great WR.
  
  I'm not saying Quinn is, or will be Manning, because he won't. But he's certainly not a bad QB... At least not yet. If he was regressing as a QB, I could understand your argument, but he's been improving, especially since his first 2.5 games this season when he'd throw nothing but dump offs. Now he's finding his intermediate routes, and throwing the ball down the field.
  
  When he's dumping it off, he's protecting himself from turnovers, which is what I'd like to see. Every QB dumps it off.
  
  Just give the kid a full season. You can't judge NFL talent off of just 1 season or less.
• Gobuckeyes1

  dabrowns41...your analysis makes sense. Unfortunately there are lots of people who really don't like Brady Quinn for whatever reason. I'll admit early on I was skeptical as well...but he has definitely improved and is starting to look like a serviceable NFL QB who still has lots of upside.
• just_a_swimmer

  

  Not only is this just his 9 or 10th start but he has been on the bench for two full years. He should have never been yanked 2.5 games into the season. That set him back. I suspect we will see more good things if he continues to play. The game will come to him. It can't be good when you sit around for two years and do nothing but practice against the 2nd team. I have said all along. He needed to play. Let him work thru the ups and downs. We are seeing glimpses of what he can be if given the chance.
• OneBuckeye

  

  DaBrowns41 wrote:

  fourfourtwo wrote: As bad as the Browns have been, wasn't their defense making strides before being turned into swiss cheese by injuries? I was expecting a blow out today and the team actually looked prepared and enthusiastic about playing, just much less talented than San Diego. This is a young team and should get younger if they draft some young talent with their 11 picks. The biggest question in my mind is not the QB, the RB, the DB, or the WR. It is the CEO. If there is no vision, structure, plan and commitment in place from the guys not on the field, then they might as well throw darts at the wall on draft day and hope some turn out. The 11 picks will be a waste, even if they were all in the first 2 rounds. The most important off-season acquisition will be in the front office.

  You'll see the structure next season when Parcells is brought in, keeps Mangini and brings in Charlie Weis as OC.

  What fantasy world do you live in?
• DaBrowns41

  OneBuckeye wrote:

  DaBrowns41 wrote:

  fourfourtwo wrote: As bad as the Browns have been, wasn't their defense making strides before being turned into swiss cheese by injuries? I was expecting a blow out today and the team actually looked prepared and enthusiastic about playing, just much less talented than San Diego. This is a young team and should get younger if they draft some young talent with their 11 picks. The biggest question in my mind is not the QB, the RB, the DB, or the WR. It is the CEO. If there is no vision, structure, plan and commitment in place from the guys not on the field, then they might as well throw darts at the wall on draft day and hope some turn out. The 11 picks will be a waste, even if they were all in the first 2 rounds. The most important off-season acquisition will be in the front office.

  You'll see the structure next season when Parcells is brought in, keeps Mangini and brings in Charlie Weis as OC.

  What fantasy world do you live in?

  Got any better ideas there, smart boy?
• Gobuckeyes1

  I think hiring Weiss as the OC would be a great move. We'll never get Parcells, but there are several other candidates that would be good, too. Better than what we have now, anyway.
• DaBrowns41

  Gobuckeyes1 wrote: I think hiring Weiss as the OC would be a great move. We'll never get Parcells, but there are several other candidates that would be good, too. Better than what we have now, anyway.

  I wouldn't speak to soon.
  
  We may have a significantly bigger shot than you think at obtaining Parcells.