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Larry or Dirk?

  • Ironman92
    Dirk is awesome...that unbelievable performance should be remembered for a long time. Larry was 2-3 inches shorter but when you ask the greatest shooter of all-time...Dirk's name gets brought up sometime...Bird's name gets brought up every time and extremely early in the conversation.

    Bird is also the best passing non-guard of all-time.

    3 MVP
    3 Titles

    Better rebounder and also one of the smartest players ever.

    This is all coming from a huge Magic Johnson fan who hated the Celtics.
  • Gardens35
    said_aouita;778538 wrote:If you were to start a team, would you take Larry Bird or Dirk Nowitzki at their best?
    Bird. At his best, at that time, he was one of 2 or 3 that carried the entire league.
  • Little Danny
    Not only is Bird a better shooter, passer and defender, the man had some of the greatest intangibles ever. Like MJ, the man was a winner..... Period. He was also one of the toughest and dirtiest SOB's to play the game. I'd take him over Dirk in a heart beat.

    I know this thread was born out of discusion on ESPN radio today. Cowherd had top 5 team every and he had Larry Legend as the #1 PF and Barkley as the #2 PF. He had Dirk at #3. I question whether Dirk is a top 5 all time PF. In addition to the first two, I would put Karl Malone, Moses Malone and Tim Duncan ahead of him.
  • Al Bundy
    Little Danny;779331 wrote:Not only is Bird a better shooter, passer and defender, the man had some of the greatest intangibles ever. Like MJ, the man was a winner..... Period. He was also one of the toughest and dirtiest SOB's to play the game. I'd take him over Dirk in a heart beat.

    I know this thread was born out of discusion on ESPN radio today. Cowherd had top 5 team every and he had Larry Legend as the #1 PF and Barkley as the #2 PF. He had Dirk at #3. I question whether Dirk is a top 5 all time PF. In addition to the first two, I would put Karl Malone, Moses Malone and Tim Duncan ahead of him.

    I heard some of that too. The problem I had with Cowherd's top 5 was that Bird normally played SF. There were times he played PF depending upon who was on the court, but he was at his best as a SF.
  • 2kool4skool
    Larry Bird
    PPG - 24.3
    RPG - 10
    APG - 6.3
    FG % - .496

    Dirk Nowitzki
    PPG - 23
    RPG - 8.4
    APG - 2.7
    FG % - .476

    These are both players' #'s through 13 seasons. Bird only played 13 seasons, while Nowitzki likely still has at least a few more effective years left in him. While I'd take Bird, mainly because I think they're equal except in passing where he has a huge advantage, it's not as ridiculous a question as people are making it out to be.
  • Manhattan Buckeye
    "While I'd take Bird, mainly because I think they're equal except in passing where he has a huge advantage,"

    The advantage is equally huge on defense....Bird was a real s.o.b. defending and that was in the era where teams had to play man to man. Bird was also more of a creator, both in terms of his own shot and assisting others. It seemed like every game he did something that would make you think "hell the hell did he pull that off?".
  • brutus161
    I'm a Mavs fan, and Dirk is one of my all-time favorite players, but I would still take Bird 100 times out of 100.
  • sleeper
    You'll never convince the old timers that any player now was better than any player in the old days. It's hilarious.

    Dirk by a mile, Larry played in a watered down league.
  • gerb131
    Dirk. Just based on name alone.
  • Little Danny
    sleeper;782243 wrote:You'll never convince the old timers that any player now was better than any player in the old days. It's hilarious.

    Dirk by a mile, Larry played in a watered down league.
    The old timers have seen both play. Therefore, they are the best to judge on who is better.

    Even when Bird was in the league people were amazed how good he was. They just saw this ugly white guy with no top lip. He wasn't supposed to be so good. Back in the 80s there was a huge divide between Larry Bird fans and everyone else. The brothers hated him and the white guys pretty much supported him. If there were message boards around at the time I could imagine the boards would be just lit up on Larry Bird conversation.
  • sleeper
    Little Danny;782293 wrote:The old timers have seen both play. Therefore, they are the best to judge on who is better.

    Even when Bird was in the league people were amazed how good he was. They just saw this ugly white guy with no top lip. He wasn't supposed to be so good. Back in the 80s there was a huge divide between Larry Bird fans and everyone else. The brothers hated him and the white guys pretty much supported him. If there were message boards around at the time I could imagine the boards would be just lit up on Larry Bird conversation.

    Nostalgia is a real phenomenon. Nothing will ever be better than "the good ole days".

    Get over yourself, Larry Bird played in a league that was heavily watered down. Dirk would take Larry to lunch, it's not even close, and the old timers know it.
  • Ironman92
    Did the "watered" down 80's help him prove his 3 point shooting expertise by dominating the 3 point shooting contest....with his warmups still on? Did his 3 titles in a league with the 5 time world champion Lakers not mean that they were better than the Lakers those years. When everyone who knows anything about basketball says Bird is one of the best players ever...does that not mean anything?

    If there were 5 tiers of the HOF with Tier 5 being the best of the best....everyone would have Bird on Tier 5....most would have Dirk on 2-4....mostly 3 I'd guess.

    And funny enough...Dirk has yet to win anything....is he above Dominic Wilkins?
  • Ironman92
    THe old timers know it? lol

    No great player of any generation is going to admit or believe the newer guys are better or that they could not compete with them....they were the best of the best for a reason...they believed no one could top them and other than Magic...no one even came close to to topping Bird.

    Is Dirk above Tim Duncan sleeper?

    A month ago Dirk was a player that was going to the HOF and going to put up a mess of career points....now he's taking it to Larry Bird, Awesome.


    He's better than Jordan too. Obviously
  • sleeper
    Ironman92;782320 wrote:Did the "watered" down 80's help him prove his 3 point shooting expertise by dominating the 3 point shooting contest....with his warmups still on? Did his 3 titles in a league with the 5 time world champion Lakers not mean that they were better than the Lakers those years. When everyone who knows anything about basketball says Bird is one of the best players ever...does that not mean anything?

    If there were 5 tiers of the HOF with Tier 5 being the best of the best....everyone would have Bird on Tier 5....most would have Dirk on 2-4....mostly 3 I'd guess.

    And funny enough...Dirk has yet to win anything....is he above Dominic Wilkins?
    It's a lot easier to win when the entire league is full of D-league type talent. The better question, and maybe I'll start a poll, is what bench would Larry ride his entire career in today's NBA?
  • GOONx19
    Ironman92;782320 wrote:Did the "watered" down 80's help him prove his 3 point shooting expertise by dominating the 3 point shooting contest....with his warmups still on? Did his 3 titles in a league with the 5 time world champion Lakers not mean that they were better than the Lakers those years. When everyone who knows anything about basketball says Bird is one of the best players ever...does that not mean anything?

    If there were 5 tiers of the HOF with Tier 5 being the best of the best....everyone would have Bird on Tier 5....most would have Dirk on 2-4....mostly 3 I'd guess.

    And funny enough...Dirk has yet to win anything....is he above Dominic Wilkins?

    First of all, who the hell cares about the 3 point contest. Daequan Cook easily won the contest a few years ago; he must be as good as Bird. Plus, warmups are meant to be easy to shoot in. Not a factor.

    Second, there has never been a hall-of-fame caliber player named Dominic.
  • Ironman92
    My bad on the "c" "k" issue...boo to me...this damn IPhone corrects/guesses what I mean to type.

    At age 55 I imagine he'd have trouble on the bench at a Y league.

    This past month has launched Dirk beyond most all players ever.

    1. Jordan
    2. Dirk
    3. Magic
    4. Joel Anthony
  • Iliketurtles
    Ironman92;782396 wrote:My bad on the "c" "k" issue...boo to me...this damn IPhone corrects/guesses what I mean to type.

    At age 55 I imagine he'd have trouble on the bench at a Y league.

    This past month has launched Dirk beyond most all players ever.

    1. Jordan
    2. Dirk
    3. Magic
    4. Joel Anthony
    Your list is off we all know Joel Anthony is #1.
  • GOONx19
    Ironman92;782396 wrote:My bad on the "c" "k" issue...boo to me...this damn IPhone corrects/guesses what I mean to type.

    LOL, "C" and "K" issue? There's no K in his name either. Seriously, the guy is known entirely by his first name, and its pronunciation makes it nearly impossible to spell wrong. Yet you're trying to make an argument about NBA history.
  • sportswizuhrd
    http://espn.go.com/blog/dallas/mavericks/post/_/id/4678670/first-take-rick-carlisle-talks-dirk-bird-comparisons

    Carlisle(former Bird teammate) says the one thing that Bird had that Dirk didnt was being surrounded by 3-4 HOF caliber guys and Dirk really hasn't. Cant say I disagree there. McHale, Johnson, Parish, Maxwell, Archibald....Dirk has had Jason Kidd and Steve Nash.
  • Ironman92
    Yeah...my epic failure has made it's way to this thread for sure. I suppose thinking is important.

    Bird > Dirk....but now that is just my opinion....I've already deemed myself retarded on this thread...so now I must stay away. Lol

    Have a good debate guys. If you need me I'll be on the Mark McGuire and Cal Ripkin thread where I belong .
  • enigmaax
    sleeper;782315 wrote:Nostalgia is a real phenomenon. Nothing will ever be better than "the good ole days".

    Get over yourself, Larry Bird played in a league that was heavily watered down.

    For young guys, "the good ole days" are right now. The same principle applies - you see guys who played 20 years ago as fossils who couldn't have possibly kept up with today's bigger, stronger, faster athletes. Everyone wants to think they witnessed/are witnessing "the all-time greatest"

    As for the league being watered down - there were at least 7 less teams during the Bird era. That means that something like a hundred guys who never would have been professionals now get that opportunity. The more people you add, the less talented you have to be to make it. The dynamic of good/great teams isn't a whole lot different between eras - there were a handful then and there's a handful now. But with so many additional players spreading the middle/lower end of the talent pool a little more thinly, you actually end up with worse teams on the bottom. That makes for a more watered down league.
  • royal_k
    Anyone that has seen both play would know...Bird > Dirk...And that's a fact.

    lol at the league being watered down. The Celtics and Lakers teams of that era would still dominate today.
  • Skyhook79
    enigmaax;782898 wrote:For young guys, "the good ole days" are right now. The same principle applies - you see guys who played 20 years ago as fossils who couldn't have possibly kept up with today's bigger, stronger, faster athletes. Everyone wants to think they witnessed/are witnessing "the all-time greatest"

    As for the league being watered down - there were at least 7 less teams during the Bird era. That means that something like a hundred guys who never would have been professionals now get that opportunity. The more people you add, the less talented you have to be to make it. The dynamic of good/great teams isn't a whole lot different between eras - there were a handful then and there's a handful now. But with so many additional players spreading the middle/lower end of the talent pool a little more thinly, you actually end up with worse teams on the bottom. That makes for a more watered down league.

    sleeper wasn't aware the NBA existed until 2003 so you will have to cut him some slack.
  • Rebel_ I.N.S.
    Bird & it's not even close.