Ohio Chatter DEV

HitsRus

Mark Shapiro has made some good trades....and he's made some trades that didn't matter. He has also made some decisions that are soooo bad, you have to wonder WTF?

What do you think is the pinnacle (or should we say Nadir) of Mark's brain on beans....pheeeeewwt.
The Great Salary Dump of 2009 has produced two candidates:

Cliff Lee and Ben Francisco

Victor Martinez

but don't forget about

Franklin Gutierrez for Luis Valbuena.

The Brandon Phillips fiasco.

Coco Crisp

Discuss

wes_mantooth

I think it was the Hafner signing. It turned out that they chose Hafner over CC.

And why isn't this titled...."Mark Crapiro.."

Sonofanump

I don't see how you can put trading away Lee and Martinez on Shapiro. Who he got back in return you can.

HitsRus

^^^^hmmmm hadn't even thought about that. (Hafner)

HitsRus

I don't see how you can put trading away Lee and Martinez on Shapiro. Who he got back in return you can.

Well, that was my point. You have to put the trades on the owner....but Jason "E" Donald, Lou "mendoza" Marson, and a single A pitcher with a bad arm for a Cy Young winner with another year on his contract may well be the worst trade in all of baseball history.

Tigerfan00

I wonder what the Indians will do with that extra 10 million after they get rid of Kerry Woods fat contract and the money from Westbrooks current contract because he will not be re-signed for the 11 million hes making now. Ive heard that a few teams have asked about Westbrook.

wes_mantooth

Those two will be gone, but it isn't like they will use that money to sign anyone of note. This organization will be a joke until the Dolans sell.

Laley23

Cliff easy. The fact that the Phillies and soon to be Mariners will get more for him is just a travesty. Not to mention we could have EASILY paid him for another year and be trading him right now....but thats on Dolan. Still the trade was seen and is now proving to be a joke.

jordo212000

If I was an Indians fan I'd still be waking up in a cold sweat over that Cliff Lee trade.

HitsRus

^^^I still am. I haven't been able to get past it , obviously.

wes_mantooth

It was a horrible trade, but since it was after a couple of other horrible decisions, I am not as angry about it. My attitude towards the Indians is so piss poor, I don't even know where to start. I have followed them through a lot of terrible years....and I am just indifferent to them these last couple years. They are that big of joke.

grodt

For me it's Franklin for Valbuena and Joe Smith....Guit has turned into a great outfielder and in return we got a terrible 2B and a bad relief pitcher. It made sense at the time, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a terrible trade.

Also, trading Cliff a year before his contract was up was atrocious and so far what we've gotten in return has not panned out.

HitsRus

Nobody has yet mentioned it....but the Phillips fiasco triggered a series of trades from which he have not recovered. We are still looking for a second baseman.

newarkcatholicfan

B.P.sucked when thew Tribe let him go.

wes_mantooth

I don't think Phillips would have ever been any good in Cleveland. They had him so screwed up....he needed a new start.

Mulva

Let's see...

Well, there's utility infielders:

Ricky Gutierrez
Jose Hernandez
Hector Luna
Ramon Vazquez
Aaron Boone
Mike Rouse
Luis Valbuena

Outfielders:

Matt Lawton
Jody Gerut
Jason Michaels
Todd Hollandsworth
David Dellucci
Trot Nixon

Relief pitchers:

Jose Jimenez
Scott Saurbeck
Scott Stewart
Roberto Hernandez
Joe Borowski
Fernando Cabrera

Reclamation projects that either never made it back or blew up in his face:

Jason Bere
Juan Gonzalez
Steve Karsay
Danny Graves
Keith Foulke
Aaron Boone (he was so bad he deserves to be listed twice)

And of course, draft picks:

Jeremy Guthrie
Matt Whitney
Micah Schilling
Michael Aubrey
Brad Snyder
Adam Miller
Jeremy Sowers
Trevor Crowe
John Drennan

Those are his first round picks from 2002-2005. And 2006 1st rounder David Huff is looking like he may join that impressive list of bust after bust (although it isn't really fair to call Guthrie a bust, he was just given up on by the Indians).

Then there's the CC and Lee trades, to go along with the Robbie Alomar trade that began his tenure as GM as well as other smaller moves.

There's paying $30+ million (currently 1/2 of the team's entire payroll) to a career DH (Hafner), a career #3/4 starter (Westbrook), and a closer (Wood).

But the biggest mistake he made was definitely sticking with Eric Wedge for 7 fucking years. Because by the time Wedge had finished even-keeling the team into the ground (I still can't understand how the 2008 Indians with both Sabathia and Lee in the rotation THAT bad before CC was traded), the organization was set back a good 3-5 seasons regardless of any other moves he made.

trep14

Cliff Lee trade and its really not close. That was an abomination. Its sad that they got more out of Casey Blake in Carlos Santana than they did for a Cy Young pitcher.

kayo

Mulva;411946 wrote:Let's see...

Well, there's utility infielders:

Ricky Gutierrez
Jose Hernandez
Hector Luna
Ramon Vazquez
Aaron Boone
Mike Rouse
Luis Valbuena

Outfielders:

Matt Lawton
Jody Gerut
Jason Michaels
Todd Hollandsworth
David Dellucci
Trot Nixon

Relief pitchers:

Jose Jimenez
Scott Saurbeck
Scott Stewart
Roberto Hernandez
Joe Borowski
Fernando Cabrera

Reclamation projects that either never made it back or blew up in his face:

Jason Bere
Juan Gonzalez
Steve Karsay
Danny Graves
Keith Foulke
Aaron Boone (he was so bad he deserves to be listed twice)

Shapiro didn't trade for all those guys.

And I know it's not de rigueur to defend Shapiro, but let's give him some credit for...

Trading Ben Broussard and Eduardo Perez in separate deals for Shin Soo Choo and Asdrubal Cabrera.
Trading Bartolo Colon for Cliff Lee, Brandon Phillips, and Grady Sizemore
Trading Ryan Drese and Einar Diaz for Travis Hafner
Trading Casey Blake for Carlos Santana (I know, it's too early to judge Santana but it's also too early to toss Jason Donald onto the scrap heap)
NOT trading (or releasing) Cliff Lee after his '07 debacle

And the jury is obviously still out on the Sabathia deal, but if either LaPorta or Brantley become stars it will turn into a Shapiro steal given that no small-market owner could have given CC enough money to stay

Mulva

kayo;412010 wrote:Shapiro didn't trade for all those guys.

I'm very aware of that. The thread title doesn't mention the word 'trade' anywhere. I know that's what the first post was about, but I was pointing out what I think his biggest mistakes have been.

Trades are actually the only thing he hasn't completely sucked at since he's been the GM.

1 playoff appearance in 9 years (counting this one) says all that needs to be said for me.

dave

Lee trade easily

kayo

Mulva;412042 wrote:I'm very aware of that. The thread title doesn't mention the word 'trade' anywhere. I know that's what the first post was about, but I was pointing out what I think his biggest mistakes have been.

Well, have at it, I guess. I fail to see how signing utility infielders or taking fliers on reclamation projects can even be considered 'mistakes'.

Laley23

Mulva;411946 wrote: Juan Gonzalez

Huh? They didnt sign him after this season, but .325 BA /.370 OBP/.590 SLG% and an 147 OPS+ 34 2B, 35 HR and 140 RBI in only 140 games is NOT a brain fart. For 10 Million, those numbers and a top 5 MVP finish is a bargain.

Mulva

Laley23;412067 wrote:Huh? They didnt sign him after this season, but .325 BA /.370 OBP/.590 SLG% and an 147 OPS+ is NOT a brain fart. For 10 Million, those numbers and a top 5 MVP finish is a bargain.

That was the 2001 season. Shapiro didn't become GM until after the 2001 season. Juan Gone beasted that year.

I'm talking about when he was brought back in 2005 with the hope that he would be a starting outfielder. He was hurt to start the year, finally got called up at the end of May, pulled his hamstring (or something like that) in literally his first at bat of the season, and never came back. He was a reclamation project because he played 70, 82, and 33 games the previous 3 years, and Shapiro brought him in hoping he would be the power bat in right field.

kayo;412053 wrote:Well, have at it, I guess. I fail to see how signing utility infielders or taking fliers on reclamation projects can even be considered 'mistakes'.

Ordinarily reclamation projects wouldn't be mistakes. But Shapiro signs these guys with the intention of plugging them into the 5 man rotation (a la Bere), the back end of the bullpen (a la Graves), or starting positions (a la Gonzalez take 2). When you try to catch lightning in a bottle as your calling card and it repeatedly fails, then yes they are mistakes in my opinion.

Utility infielders usually wouldn't be mistakes either, but since Wedge loved platooning so much the utility guys ended up becoming regular fixtures in the starting lineup pretty frequently, which makes them pretty important pieces. If you start at 3rd one day, then 2nd, then short, you are still starting all 3 games. Just because you don't have a set position doesn't mean you can't be a mistake.

And I fail to see how anyone could still possibly try to defend Shapiro, but you go ahead and have at that if you'd like.

Footwedge

I dunno. Seems like Shapiro found God as the new second baseman.

HitsRus

Well as the originator of the thread, let me say it is not only about trades, but also decisions/moves that have left this once thriving franchise drawing crowds consistently under 15,000.

I have to side with kayo, in that you can't really blame him for taking flyers on players....I think it is pretty well understood that these low cost gambles are low percentage. It would be nice if he would get club options on a second year...that way if they were able to turn a guy around, the team coukld keep them for another year. Even giving Shapiro that...his record especially the past 3 years is abyssmal. The poor choices made in contracts, trades, and drafting are lined up like jets over La Guardia.

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Mark Shapiro's biggest brain farts