Archive

People and Cops

  • isadore
    sleeper;1745375 wrote:Who cares? When are black people going to grow up and follow the law?
    gosh a ruddies you asked:
    sleeper wrote:Does this include the people in jail?
  • O-Trap
    BR1986FB;1741959 wrote:Yeah, now it seems like it's not "edgy" if you don't step up to the cop or get into a confrontation with them. They have a freakin' gun and a taser. What part of "fuck (or confront) with me and you're going to get hurt OR die" do they not understand. It's a lack of freaking respect. Anyone who steps up to a cop, whether he's a royal prick, or not, gets what they deserve.
    I suppose this depends on what you mean by "steps up." If someone gets into a verbal confrontation and gets shot, I don't think they "deserved" being shot.

    Make no mistake, I don't think one should look for reasons to get into a verbal confrontation with an officer. It's a poor choice. But not all poor choices warrant lethal force.
    sleeper;1743349 wrote:Once again, the advice listed in my original post would prevent these type of things from happening.
    Like these ones, sure. Not all instances of police brutality, of course. And at what point does a citizen stop complying to an officer going beyond his authority?
    Glory Days;1743717 wrote:in the full video not on CNN, he asked the guy to take off his seat belt. the guy turned on the engine and put the car in drive. the cop reached in to grab the keys to stop him. if the cop feels the car starts to move while he is leaning the car, he'll do what he can to stop it. cops don't need to actually receive bodily injury before they shoot someone. how long does a cop need to be dragged by a car before they shoot? 5ft, 50ft, 100ft? the guy knowingly turned on the car, put the car in drive, and even if for a split second, made the decision to hit the gas pedal with the cop in the car.
    I couldn't tell from the video, but could the officer not have let go and pulled his arm out of the car?
    Belly35;1743981 wrote:I think the solution is simple.... When stopped / pulled over the first action of the driver is to turn off the car/ truck and put the keys on top of the roof or hand them to the officer... when the officer sees or request the keys on top of the car or handing them to the officer, he may then proceed to do more questioning.
    The officer does not have a right to my keys, so I don't think it should be necessary in order to be sure not to get shot.
    sleeper;1745375 wrote:Who cares? When are black people going to grow up and follow the law?
    I think this is less a problem with race and more a problem with urban subculture. While there might be a larger percentage of black people in urban areas, I'm willing to bet that comparing black people in rural areas, suburbia, and urban areas would show a close correlation to the relationship between white people in each of the three areas. Honestly, I think a LOT of the social unrest problems fall more along the lines of geography and population density than they do racial lines (with notable exceptions, of course).
  • sleeper
    Like these ones, sure. Not all instances of police brutality, of course. And at what point does a citizen stop complying to an officer going beyond his authority?
    I'd like to see a case where a citizen complies with all officer requests and gets promptly beaten for doing so. It's a long tail event at best and barely worth a discussion.
  • O-Trap
    sleeper;1745693 wrote:I'd like to see a case where a citizen complies with all officer requests and gets promptly beaten for doing so. It's a long tail event at best and barely worth a discussion.
    What if we limit it to requests that exist within the officer's purview of authority? If an officer asks me to drop trou or search my vehicle without cause, I'm probably not going to do so, and I don't think I should have to fear violent repercussions for not complying with a request the officer doesn't have the authority to make.
  • sleeper
    O-Trap;1745695 wrote:What if we limit it to requests that exist within the officer's purview of authority? If an officer asks me to drop trou or search my vehicle without cause, I'm probably not going to do so, and I don't think I should have to fear violent repercussions for not complying with a request the officer doesn't have the authority to make.
    What do you have to fear? If the officer performs an unconstitutional act, anything they find as a result will be tossed in court. Then after its tossed, you sue the city, the police department, and the officer and get paid. I can only pray that one day I am highly mistreated by police officers because you can bet your bottom dollar I would comply and then bankrupt the entire department.
  • sleeper
    And the reality, again, is these are long tail events. In an ideal world, you shouldn't have to fear anyone and nothing bad should ever happen. However, in reality, you have to protect yourself because we don't live in a risk free ideal world.
  • O-Trap
    sleeper;1745697 wrote:What do you have to fear? If the officer performs an unconstitutional act, anything they find as a result will be tossed in court. Then after its tossed, you sue the city, the police department, and the officer and get paid. I can only pray that one day I am highly mistreated by police officers because you can bet your bottom dollar I would comply and then bankrupt the entire department.
    It's not an issue of fear, really, provided the cop is just power-hungry. We'll assume he's not unscrupulous for our hypothetical.

    And your response would be warranted, but the reason it's warranted is because officers are not permitted to do it. As such, I certainly don't think a law-abiding citizen should be required, or compelled by threat of violence, to comply with the request.
    sleeper;1745698 wrote:And the reality, again, is these are long tail events. In an ideal world, you shouldn't have to fear anyone and nothing bad should ever happen. However, in reality, you have to protect yourself because we don't live in a risk free ideal world.
    They are long-tail, I agree. However, the odds are against such instances happening each time they actually do happen, and given the potential gravity of the result, I would submit that it's probably best to address them all the same.
  • sleeper
    O-Trap;1745702 wrote:It's not an issue of fear, really, provided the cop is just power-hungry. We'll assume he's not unscrupulous for our hypothetical.

    And your response would be warranted, but the reason it's warranted is because officers are not permitted to do it. As such, I certainly don't think a law-abiding citizen should be required, or compelled by threat of violence, to comply with the request.
    Rarely is a victim of police brutality a law-abiding citizen acting innocently. There is a way to protect your rights as a citizen without provoking the police officer. In all of the recent cases, each individual had enough control over the situation to prevent their own demise. When are individuals going to grow up and learn how to deal with authority the proper way? Cops don't want to shoot you or beat you; they want mutual respect and to go home safely to their families like everyone else.
  • O-Trap
    sleeper;1745703 wrote:Rarely is a victim of police brutality a law-abiding citizen acting innocently. There is a way to protect your rights as a citizen without provoking the police officer. In all of the recent cases, each individual had enough control over the situation to prevent their own demise. When are individuals going to grow up and learn how to deal with authority the proper way? Cops don't want to shoot you or beat you; they want mutual respect and to go home safely to their families like everyone else.
    The vast bulk of them do, I would think. Like most occupations, you've got the gamut of personalities.

    However, that being the case, I wouldn't think I should be expected to trust the person in the uniform any more than I would trust a stranger of any of various other occupations. If an Ohio Edison employee came by to check the meter outside my house, and they asked to come in to look around, I wouldn't allow them to. It's outside the purview of their responsibilities. Might their intentions be harmless? Sure. But the person is, at the end of the day, a stranger, and if what they're doing is beyond the limits of their responsibilities, I'm more comfortable with them just sticking to what they're permitted to do. It's not fear. It's appropriate caution.

    I'm sure there are some cops who, when having a bad day, might want to hit someone. Hell, I do some days. And just because a client is difficult with me, that doesn't give me cause to go beyond my responsibilities.
  • Glory Days
    O-Trap;1745695 wrote:What if we limit it to requests that exist within the officer's purview of authority? If an officer asks me to drop trou or search my vehicle without cause, I'm probably not going to do so, and I don't think I should have to fear violent repercussions for not complying with a request the officer doesn't have the authority to make.
    There is no right to resist arrest in any situation. and there is also a difference between not complying and actively resisting.
    O-Trap;1745724 wrote:The vast bulk of them do, I would think. Like most occupations, you've got the gamut of personalities.

    However, that being the case, I wouldn't think I should be expected to trust the person in the uniform any more than I would trust a stranger of any of various other occupations. If an Ohio Edison employee came by to check the meter outside my house, and they asked to come in to look around, I wouldn't allow them to. It's outside the purview of their responsibilities. Might their intentions be harmless? Sure. But the person is, at the end of the day, a stranger, and if what they're doing is beyond the limits of their responsibilities, I'm more comfortable with them just sticking to what they're permitted to do. It's not fear. It's appropriate caution.

    I'm sure there are some cops who, when having a bad day, might want to hit someone. Hell, I do some days. And just because a client is difficult with me, that doesn't give me cause to go beyond my responsibilities.
    the difference between the cop and the Edison employee is that the law gives the cop power over citizens. if they didn't have power over citizens, they wouldn't be able to make any arrest.
  • Glory Days
    Brutal attack on Ala. cop celebrated on social media
    http://www.policeone.com/patrol-issues/articles/8701994-Brutal-attack-on-Ala-cop-celebrated-on-social-media

  • O-Trap
    Glory Days;1745742 wrote:There is no right to resist arrest in any situation. and there is also a difference between not complying and actively resisting.
    In either case, however, I can't see a logical case for use of lethal force unless the resistant/non-compliant civilian is posing potentially lethal harm. I do understand that there is a distinction between the two, though.
    Glory Days;1745742 wrote: the difference between the cop and the Edison employee is that the law gives the cop power over citizens. if they didn't have power over citizens, they wouldn't be able to make any arrest.
    They are granted power to enforce the law, but their authority is not up for use at their own discretion or without limits. The commonality is that each has a purview ... a limit to what they are allowed to do in order to do their jobs. For example, you cannot search my home at your whim. You need cause and a warrant. Just because an officer has been granted authority to enforce the law does not grant him the ability to usurp the rules that are authorities over him.
  • Glory Days
    O-Trap;1745747 wrote:In either case, however, I can't see a logical case for use of lethal force unless the resistant/non-compliant civilian is posing potentially lethal harm. I do understand that there is a distinction between the two, though.



    They are granted power to enforce the law, but their authority is not up for use at their own discretion or without limits. The commonality is that each has a purview ... a limit to what they are allowed to do in order to do their jobs. For example, you cannot search my home at your whim. You need cause and a warrant. Just because an officer has been granted authority to enforce the law does not grant him the ability to usurp the rules that are authorities over him.
    of course. but regardless of whether or not the officer is acting in the scope of his power, you still cannot resist. that is why we have checks and balances.
  • gut
    Glory Days;1745785 wrote:of course. but regardless of whether or not the officer is acting in the scope of his power, you still cannot resist. that is why we have checks and balances.
    I really don't get why people don't understand that. What exactly do they expect to accomplish by talking back, resisting or even fleeing? What has anyone ever really accomplished doing that?

    I'm no fan of Huckabee, but I think he was spot on about this being a family problem. I didn't get anywhere pulling that shit with my parents, nor did they ever let me think that was an acceptable way to act with people of authority.
  • O-Trap
    Glory Days;1745785 wrote:of course. but regardless of whether or not the officer is acting in the scope of his power, you still cannot resist. that is why we have checks and balances.
    Sure. Like I said, even if they resist, I still don't see grounds for lethal force aside from preventing potentially lethal force, but I do understand the distinction between resistance and failure to comply.
  • j_crazy
    j_crazy;1745342 wrote:Bullshit. I live about 25 minutes from where she was picked up. If that is the cops jurisdiction, that stretch of Waller County where she was pulled over, it is like 35% black 40% white and 25% latino.

    EDIT:

    I don't mean to make it sound like a rough neighborhood, it's mostly like middle class suburbs, a few little country podunk towns. I'd say lower middle class to upper lower class as far as the standard of living. It's no where near the really bad parts just down FM 290 heading to downtown.
    i didn't say waller county i said the area where she was picked up in waller county. you're talking about a county that is 500 square miles and has a population of 50,000 people. it's not evenly spread out. i live 3 miles from the county line and from there until where sandra bland was pulled over, its about 20 miles, and 85% of that is rice/millet/turf/wheat farms. the southern and western 2/3 of that county are not densely populated and what people live in those parts are mostly (like 85%) white with a little hispanic. You get up along 290, thats where the people all live and where she was picked up is not a diverse neighborhood.

    From wikipedia:

    The racial makeup of the city was 3.47% White, 93.51% African American, 0.18% Native American, 0.43% Asian, 1.36% from other races, and 1.04% from two or more races. Hispanic or Latino of any race were 2.65% of the population.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prairie_View,_Texas

    gosh a go fuck yourself
  • MontyBrunswick
    Don't mess with Texas LOL
  • sleeper
    gut;1745788 wrote:I really don't get why people don't understand that. What exactly do they expect to accomplish by talking back, resisting or even fleeing? What has anyone ever really accomplished doing that?

    I'm no fan of Huckabee, but I think he was spot on about this being a family problem. I didn't get anywhere pulling that shit with my parents, nor did they ever let me think that was an acceptable way to act with people of authority.
    Because they got in trouble and they "din't do nuttin' wrong". People need to grow up and accept the responsibility for their actions.
  • sleeper
    Glory Days;1745743 wrote:Brutal attack on Ala. cop celebrated on social media
    http://www.policeone.com/patrol-issues/articles/8701994-Brutal-attack-on-Ala-cop-celebrated-on-social-media

    Exhibit A why police officers deserve full control and authority during a stop.
  • isadore
    j_crazy;1745799 wrote:i didn't say waller county i said the area where she was picked up in waller county. you're talking about a county that is 500 square miles and has a population of 50,000 people. it's not evenly spread out. i live 3 miles from the county line and from there until where sandra bland was pulled over, its about 20 miles, and 85% of that is rice/millet/turf/wheat farms. the southern and western 2/3 of that county are not densely populated and what people live in those parts are mostly (like 85%) white with a little hispanic. You get up along 290, thats where the people all live and where she was picked up is not a diverse neighborhood.

    From wikipedia:

    The racial makeup of the city was 3.47% White, 93.51% African American, 0.18% Native American, 0.43% Asian, 1.36% from other races, and 1.04% from two or more races. Hispanic or Latino of any race were 2.65% of the population.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prairie_View,_Texas

    gosh a go fuck yourself
    gosh a ruddies so she was picked up in an area where the state cops were looking for black folk to harass.
  • Glory Days
    isadore;1745891 wrote:gosh a ruddies so she was picked up in an area where the state cops were looking for black folk to harass.
    except that is not true. you clearly didn't read post #67
    Glory Days;1745325 wrote:So the Texas State Trooper who pulled over Sandra Bland pulled over the same number of whites and blacks. Even the reasons for the traffic stops were basically equal:



    http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-sandra-bland-trooper-encinia-20150810-story.html
  • isadore
    Glory Days;1745893 wrote:except that is not true. you clearly didn't read post #67
    which are percentages not reflective of white dominant Texas or Waller County.
  • Glory Days
    isadore;1745895 wrote:which are percentages not reflective of white dominant Texas or Waller County.
    Seriously, wrong again. and by your theory, he should have been pulling over MORE blacks.

    Post #90
    The racial makeup of the city was 3.47% White, 93.51% African American, 0.18% Native American, 0.43% Asian, 1.36% from other races, and 1.04% from two or more races. Hispanic or Latino of any race were 2.65% of the population.
  • O-Trap
    sleeper;1585755 wrote:I would vote for the libertarian.
    sleeper;1745865 wrote:Exhibit A why police officers deserve full control and authority during a stop.
  • Belly35
    I like to have control of any situation....