30 for 30: Hillsborough

• ohiobucks1

  

  Manhattan Buckeye;1608352 wrote:Do you and sports and dumbass live in england?
  
  No, you don't. I'm the only one that lives with this. It isn't as bad as it used to be, but stop acting like you fucks know what it is like to be at a pub when Arsenal or Chelsea is having a big match. Alcoholism is still a problem.

  
  I've been to England 10+ times. I've been to pubs all over the country during all types of games. I've been to Chelsea, United, City, Wembley, Stoke, Arsenal, Tottenham, Fulham, and Everton games and watched all types of games in different settings from different areas. I was even in London during the Tottenham riots two years ago. I've seen some fucked up things.
  
  With that said, it's not that much worse than the alcoholism in Columbus on the day of an OSU game, or Cleveland on a Browns gameday. Drunk people do stupid things. English fans DO have problems with hooliganism and the fights and problems it leads to. You're right. We don't see that type of alcoholism in America very often.
  
  However, Hillsborough had NOTHING to do with hooliganism besides the grounds being poorly set up because of it, so I'm not really sure why youre talking about it. These fans could have been sober and they would not have seen the problems they were creating up front until it was too late.
• Al Bundy

  Manhattan Buckeye;1608352 wrote:Do you and sports and dumbass live in england?
  
  No, you don't. I'm the only one that lives with this. It isn't as bad as it used to be, but stop acting like you fucks know what it is like to be at a pub when Arsenal or Chelsea is having a big match. Alcoholism is still a problem.

  They probably don't even have passports.
• Manhattan Buckeye

  Al Bundy;1608356 wrote:They probably don't even have passports.

  I'd be shocked if S&L does. And it might be similar to OSU/Michigan, but that game is only once a year, and every other year in Columbus. It isn't just a random weekend when you can't walk down the street without stepping on thousands of broken glass.
• ohiobucks1

  

  Manhattan Buckeye;1608357 wrote:I'd be shocked if S&L does. And it might be similar to OSU/Michigan, but that game is only once a year, and every other year in Columbus. It isn't just a random weekend when you can't walk down the street without stepping on thousands of broken glass.

  What city are you in?
• Manhattan Buckeye

  Windsor, but I work in Canary Wharf (ideally only twice a week since it is a 90 minute commute, but sometimes I have to go in more often), wife works in Slough - a 10 minute commute which is why we live here.
• ohiobucks1

  

  Manhattan Buckeye;1608361 wrote:Windsor, but I work in Canary Wharf (ideally only twice a week since it is a 90 minute commute, but sometimes I have to go in more often), wife works in Slough - a 10 minute commute which is why we live here.

  
  So essentially you work in the equivalent of NYC, right? It's worse than NYC in terms of people, trash/glass, and alcoholism, in your opinion?
• Tigerfan00

  

  LJ, is that you?
• Manhattan Buckeye

  ohiobucks1;1608366 wrote:So essentially you work in the equivalent of NYC, right? It's worse than NYC in terms of people, trash/glass, and alcoholism, in your opinion?

  work is like NYC, alcohol consumption is far worse, even worse than New Orleans. The city cleans it up the next day in good order, but the night before can be messy. I don't understand it. There's a garbage can a few feet away and hooligans will just shatter their bottles on the ground.
  
  - edit, it is bad enough for people but at least we have shoes. It is so aggravating walking the dog the next morning with all of the litter and glass around.
• SportsAndLady

  

  Manhattan Buckeye;1608357 wrote:I'd be shocked if S&L does. And it might be similar to OSU/Michigan, but that game is only once a year, and every other year in Columbus. It isn't just a random weekend when you can't walk down the street without stepping on thousands of broken glass.

  Who gives a shit if I have a passport lol
  
  Haven't been out of the country (that required a passport) since the 90s so why get a passport? It literally means nothing.
• Automatik

  

  I'm late to the party. I will watch this 30 for 30 and report back!
  
  
  Also, I have a passport. It expires in 2016.
• Manhattan Buckeye

  SportsAndLady;1608373 wrote:Who gives a shit if I have a passport lol
  
  Haven't been out of the country (that required a passport) since the 90s so why get a passport? It literally means nothing.

  Well, it means something. Unless you can see a foreign country for yourself you have to rely on media - and how reliable is that?
• SportsAndLady

  

  Manhattan Buckeye;1608375 wrote:Well, it means something. Unless you can see a foreign country for yourself you have to rely on media - and how reliable is that?

  What are the effects of not seeing a foreign country between the ages of 16 and 25?
• Automatik

  

  Probably negative, because after that its wife'd up kids, and bullshit.
  
  You missed out on YOLO'ing in another country. Sucks.
• Manhattan Buckeye

  SportsAndLady;1608377 wrote:What are the effects of not seeing a foreign country between the ages of 16 and 25?

  The opportunity for yourself, and also being an unofficial ambassador of the USA. I'm belaboring the point, and don't want to take this to the politics forum, but there's a reason why foreigners have such strange views about Americans. CNN International might as well be the anti-American network, and BBC isn't much better. If someone were to watch those outlets only they'd think African-Americans are still in slavery, women aren't allowed anywhere but the kitchen and every American carries guns, everywhere. Oh, and the New York Times which is obviously indicative of your average American.
  
  That's a bit of an overstatement, but not by a lot.
• SportsAndLady

  

  Manhattan Buckeye;1608395 wrote:The opportunity for yourself, and also being an unofficial ambassador of the USA. I'm belaboring the point, and don't want to take this to the politics forum, but there's a reason why foreigners have such strange views about Americans. CNN International might as well be the anti-American network, and BBC isn't much better. If someone were to watch those outlets only they'd think African-Americans are still in slavery, women aren't allowed anywhere but the kitchen and every American carries guns, everywhere. Oh, and the New York Times which is obviously indicative of your average American.
  
  That's a bit of an overstatement, but not by a lot.

  An opportunity for myself...kinda broad. What opportunities? I don't appreciate "art" or "nature" so I'm not sure what I'm missing by never going to Paris or Barcelona or any other major European city. I hope to go one day but it's not like I am missing out at this point because I never saw a museum in France or a pub in London. My Chicago pubs are doing just fine and I went to the Chicago aquarium once.
• Fab1b

  

  You guys have to ruin every thread with this BS?
  
  Anyways I wanted to discuss another aspect as to why some of the blame must lay with the fans. Fans arrived in large numbers shortly before kickoff, not in a timely manner to find their seats or anything but very close to kick off. They became angry at the fact the lines were not moving and were pissed they may miss kick off and began piling up at the entrances and pushing, shoving, arguing with police (clearly shown in the video footage outside the stadium) which forced the police to make the drastic and poor decision to open the gates because people were about to crush those outside of the stadium to get in. IMO the police should have grabbed some bullhorns and let the crowd know you ain't getting in any time soon especially if you don't calm down however we know that would have led to a riot probably. I just don't get how you think none of the fans played a role in causing this disaster?
• Manhattan Buckeye

  "You guys have to ruin every thread with this BS?"
  
  It's only ruined if you listen to the BS, and not the actual good commentary. But I'll stop.
• ohiobucks1

  

  Fab1b;1608400 wrote:You guys have to ruin every thread with this BS?
  
  Anyways I wanted to discuss another aspect as to why some of the blame must lay with the fans. Fans arrived in large numbers shortly before kickoff, not in a timely manner to find their seats or anything but very close to kick off. They became angry at the fact the lines were not moving and were pissed they may miss kick off and began piling up at the entrances and pushing, shoving, arguing with police (clearly shown in the video footage outside the stadium) which forced the police to make the drastic and poor decision to open the gates because people were about to crush those outside of the stadium to get in. IMO the police should have grabbed some bullhorns and let the crowd know you ain't getting in any time soon especially if you don't calm down however we know that would have led to a riot probably. I just don't get how you think none of the fans played a role in causing this disaster?

  I don't think it's the fans fault that there was a lack of foresight into the potential problems. Look at the Leeds issue from Hillsborough the year before. The authorities should have known this was a potential issue. I do blame the fans who were rowdy and wanted to come in the way they did for making it worse. However, I don't think any of them could have known they were literally killing people. It happened all the time at that (and similar) stadiums. It was a design flaw. It was a supervision flaw. It would have happened regardless of which team's fans were involved. Could have been Chelsea, Liverpool, United, City, etc.
• OSH

  

  Fab1b;1608400 wrote:I just don't get how you think none of the fans played a role in causing this disaster?

  ohiobucks1;1608406 wrote:I don't think it's the fans fault that there was a lack of foresight into the potential problems. Look at the Leeds issue from Hillsborough the year before. The authorities should have known this was a potential issue. I do blame the fans who were rowdy and wanted to come in the way they did for making it worse. However, I don't think any of them could have known they were literally killing people. It happened all the time at that (and similar) stadiums. It was a design flaw. It was a supervision flaw. It would have happened regardless of which team's fans were involved. Could have been Chelsea, Liverpool, United, City, etc.

  I look at it like ohiobucks1 has. I understand that now we are looking at it like -- fans should've been there 1 hour in advance (a bit dramatic, but you get the point). But the fact of the matter is, there certainly wasn't proper foresight in where fans should go, how they should go in, and manpower to oversee everything. The security in the tower did absolutely nothing when the pens were filling. There were no security stopping people from going in the pens -- which had been there before. I'm sure many of us have been in "mosh pits" before and know that people move up/down/left/right in those pits. This was no different. People were moving to get a view and it just so happened that there were people getting crushed in front.
  
  The whole pinning everything on alcohol and the fans, like the authorities tried, was absolutely disgraceful. Were fans somewhat responsible, sure...they should've never trampled anyone. But with proper supervision and security and planning...don't put that to risk.
• friendfromlowry

  Speaking of passports, our baby is due in July/August. We're suppose to go to Canada for a wedding later this year. The baby would need a passport to travel, which seems absurd to me.
  I guess I hope this helps.