Fertilizer plant explodes in Texas...

• WebFire

  gut;1428441 wrote:Small town without a lot of resources.
  
  I remember seeing footage of some ridiculously massive natural gas plant explosion a year or two ago, that's why I'd stay a long ways away. Plus I also remember what the OK City bombing did. I wouldn't have wanted to be 400 yards from that, so I'd give a whole plant of the stuff a much wider berth. Just plain common sense.
  
  And besides the blast radius itself, I'd also be worried about flying debris that I'd expect to be launched over a mile. So, no, I'm nowhere near 1/4 mile from that.

  You'd be the exception then, IMO. And BS on the resources. I am a volunteer firefighter in a town of 1500, and we'd sure as hell get resources there in 50 minutes to block off access in the appropriate area if we knew the potential.
• gut

  WebFire;1428508 wrote:You'd be the exception then, IMO. And BS on the resources. I am a volunteer firefighter in a town of 1500, and we'd sure as hell get resources there in 50 minutes to block off access in the appropriate area if we knew the potential.

  I suppose I'd be an exception - common sense is a dying breed. Like I said, anyone that remembers OK City should have realized the awesome potential of a whole plant of the stuff.
  
  You'd devote resources away from a fire that size? And would blocking the road be a priority over evacuating the immediate vicinity? Over treating possible injuries from the fire?
• WebFire

  gut;1428576 wrote:I suppose I'd be an exception - common sense is a dying breed. Like I said, anyone that remembers OK City should have realized the awesome potential of a whole plant of the stuff.
  
  You'd devote resources away from a fire that size? And would blocking the road be a priority over evacuating the immediate vicinity? Over treating possible injuries from the fire?

  No, I would not devote resources away from the fire. I would devote additional resources to evacuate to the recommended distance. See that book I posted above? That's what we use.
  
  In 50 minutes I could have 12+ fire departments (more if needed) and law enforcement from 3 counties, plus OSP, on scene. There really is no excuse.
• WebFire

  Furthermore, your common sense isn't as common as you think. The CDC emergency response card doesn't even address a fire with anhydrous ammonia of this magnitude. It only address tankers and trucks. With the info presented, the fire should have been isolated for 1 mile, with consideration for evacuation of the same distance. Would that have been enough?
  
  http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/ershdb/EmergencyResponseCard_29750013.html
• gut

  WebFire;1428591 wrote: In 50 minutes I could have 12+ fire departments (more if needed) and law enforcement from 3 counties, plus OSP, on scene. There really is no excuse.

  Ehhhh, it's TX....Neighboring towns are all 15-20 miles or more away, all with small volunteer FD (probably with the exception of Waco). Seems like a very tight timetable to get everyone there and dispatch all those resources to do all that before it blows up.
• WebFire

  gut;1428603 wrote:Ehhhh, it's TX....Neighboring towns are all 15-20 miles or more away, all with small volunteer FD (probably with the exception of Waco). Seems like a very tight timetable to get everyone there and dispatch all those resources to do all that before it blows up.

  That could be true. Every area is different. But if they knew the potential as much as you say any average Joe would, then isolation and evac should have been the priority.
• Fly4Fun

  

  WebFire;1428616 wrote:That could be true. Every area is different. But if they knew the potential as much as you say any average Joe would, then isolation and evac should have been the priority.

  We get it, you don't believe that some of us would be smart enough to realize that a fire at a fertilizer plant could possibly be dangerous and we wouldn't want to hang around and find out what happens.
  
  OR, it's possible that we're not idiots.
• WebFire

  Fly4Fun;1428623 wrote:We get it, you don't believe that some of us would be smart enough to realize that a fire at a fertilizer plant could possibly be dangerous and we wouldn't want to hang around and find out what happens.
  
  OR, it's possible that we're not idiots.

  Not at all what I said. I am saying people see the video and then determine they would have been farther away. In reality, those people would have thought they were plenty far away.
  
  Hindsight is 20/20.
• Fly4Fun

  

  WebFire;1428629 wrote:Not at all what I said. I am saying people see the video and then determine they would have been farther away. In reality, those people would have thought they were plenty far away.
  
  Hindsight is 20/20.

  I understand the point you're trying to make. But I think you're also just assuming that some people wouldn't make the connection in their mind that fertilizer can easily be made into dangerous bombs, so there is something potentially explosive about it. Any person could make that connection if they remembered the OKC bombing.
• WebFire

  Fly4Fun;1428639 wrote:I understand the point you're trying to make. But I think you're also just assuming that some people wouldn't make the connection in their mind that fertilizer can easily be made into dangerous bombs, so there is something potentially explosive about it. Any person could make that connection if they remembered the OKC bombing.

  Seriously?
  
  "Hey ma, look at the big fire over there!"
  
  "Oh my, remember the OKC bombing? We better stay 1.5 miles away."
  
  Yeah, I don't think so.
• reclegend22

  

  I'm not sure where I stand on it, but I do know that if I lived in the area and knew that it was a chemical plant on fire with potential hazardous materials in the air, I'd be getting the hell out and quick. Then again, I am afraid of being anywhere near almost all chemicals and try to avoid anything that can blind or kill me at all costs. Which is weird because I was a smoker for about three years in college. But they couldn't kill me since they made me cool.
• WebFire

  reclegend22;1428647 wrote:I'm not sure where I stand on it, but I do know that if I lived in the area and knew that it was a chemical plant on fire with potential hazardous materials in the air, I'd be getting the hell out and quick. Then again, I am afraid of being anywhere near almost all chemicals and try to avoid anything that can blind or kill me at all costs. Which is weird because I was a smoker for about threes years in college. But they couldn't kill me since they made me "cool."

  You might have a little heightened awareness about the place being there, but to be honest I think you give too much credit to people. There are hazardous places all around that people drive by everyday and don't think a thing of it. Just in my little town, we have a "factory" that makes aircraft parts for the gov't, and it is a fire/explosion hazard. 1/4 the town probably works there. We also have a dynamite storage facility, and then the numerous ag places that store the anhydrous.
  
  I can guarantee people don't have a clue and don't think a thing about these places.
• reclegend22

  

  WebFire;1428656 wrote:You might have a little heightened awareness about the place being there, but to be honest I think you give too much credit to people. There are hazardous places all around that people drive by everyday and don't think a thing of it. Just in my little town, we have a "factory" that makes aircraft parts for the gov't, and it is a fire/explosion hazard. 1/4 the town probably works there. We also have a dynamite storage facility, and then the numerous ag places that store the anhydrous.
  
  I can guarantee people don't have a clue and don't think a thing about these places.

  I don't doubt that. Most people are idiots. Agreed.
• WebFire

  reclegend22;1428661 wrote:I don't doubt that. Most people are idiots. Agreed.

  Maybe I should have said that different. Most people are not up on their hazmat awareness class and do not realize the dangers of such places.
• gut

  WebFire;1428616 wrote:That could be true. Every area is different. But if they knew the potential as much as you say any average Joe would, then isolation and evac should have been the priority.

  Well, there's a big difference between the first responders and casual observers.
  
  Doesn't sound like they really started calling in ALL the resources until after the explosion. Sounds to me like a poor plan, but they probably expected they would contain/control the fire before it exploded.
  
  As for the big boom, it's been all over the news since OK City about fertilizer bombs, and much has been made about restrictions and I recall a few busts. It should be common knowledge for anyone that watches the news that fertilizer makes big boom (heck, it's even been in plenty of tv shows), but apparently most people don't watch the news .
  
  I'll buy that people wouldn't know it's a fertilizer plant. Although I think far less likely in such a small town when that plant is likely the major employer.
  
  Like I said, fertilizer/gas/refinery or anything that goes boom I'm getting far away from. Anything chemical I'm getting MUCH further away from. And it's not about knowing the potential, it's common sense erring on the extreme side of caution.
• reclegend22

  

  WebFire;1428666 wrote:Maybe I should have said that different. Most people are not up on their hazmat awareness class and do not realize the dangers of such places.

  You shouldn't have to take a hazmat awareness class in order to know that toxic waste from a chemical fire can be hazardous to your health. lol
  
  But your original point remains true, whether it's what you directly intended to say or not: most people have no idea about life and the proper way to react to it.
• WebFire

  reclegend22;1428705 wrote:You shouldn't have to take a hazmat awareness class in order to know that toxic waste from a chemical fire can be hazardous to your health. lol
  
  But your original point remains true, whether it's what you directly intended to say or not: most people have no idea about life and the proper way to react to it.

  Don't get me wrong, I think many WOULD know there is a danger and to "stay back". What I am questioning is how many people know how far back? Very few. No ordinary person would have known that explosion was coming, and therefore wouldn't know how far back to be. In my eyes, the guy in the video thought he was doing the right thing by being as far away as he was.
• gut

  WebFire;1429032 wrote:What I am questioning is how many people know how far back?

  And only an idiot asks himself that question, like he's going to win a prize at Cedar Point.
  
  The answer is A LOT farther back than I think I need to be knowing the thing can explode. Like whatever I think is a safe distance, multiplied by 10.
• WebFire

  gut;1429544 wrote:And only an idiot asks himself that question, like he's going to win a prize at Cedar Point.
  
  The answer is A LOT farther back than I think I need to be knowing the thing can explode. Like whatever I think is a safe distance, multiplied by 10.

  Ok then.
  
  (then it would probably have to be what you thought X 11, and we could call you a dumbass)
• gut

  WebFire;1429588 wrote:Ok then.
  
  (then it would probably have to be what you thought X 11, and we could call you a dumbass)

  LOL, and technically he was MAYBE a safe distance away (seems like the kid may have suffered a blown ear drum). I don't know if the nitrate tank had instead gone off if it would have been worse.
  
  I tend to think if you tell people a building is going to explode, MOST would choose to be more than 400 yards away. Heck, Mythbusters has much smaller explosions than that and they go several hundred yards away behind a blast screen.
• vball10set

  WebFire;1428656 wrote:... but to be honest I think you give too much credit to people....I can guarantee people don't have a clue and don't think a thing about these places.

  /thread
• WebFire

  gut;1429595 wrote:LOL, and technically he was MAYBE a safe distance away (seems like the kid may have suffered a blown ear drum). I don't know if the nitrate tank had instead gone off if it would have been worse.
  
  I tend to think if you tell people a building is going to explode, MOST would choose to be more than 400 yards away. Heck, Mythbusters has much smaller explosions than that and they go several hundred yards away behind a blast screen.

  Just an FYI, I had read the little girl only had temporary hearing loss and is fine now.
  
  As to your second paragraph, no one said "hey this is going to explode."
• gut

  WebFire;1430062 wrote: As to your second paragraph, no one said "hey this is going to explode."

  I get that. Doesn't need to be said for people with a little common sense. I thought "fertilizer BOMB" was fairly common knowledge.
• WebFire

  gut;1430077 wrote:I get that. Doesn't need to be said for people with a little common sense. I thought "fertilizer BOMB" was fairly common knowledge.

  Meh. We'll agree to disagree.
• WebFire

  DHS should have just checked with gut on this.
  
  [h=1]Texas fertilizer company didn't heed disclosure rules before blast[/h]
  http://news.yahoo.com/texas-fertilizer-company-didnt-heed-disclosure-rules-blast-064640496--finance.html