Thoughts on Jon Diebler?

• UA5straightin2008

  

  you mean On Iebler? No "J", No "D"
• karen lotz

  

  UA5straightin2008 wrote: you mean Ohn Iebler? No "J", No "D"

  If you are gonna do something like that in a weak attempt to slam the kid, you could at least spell the rest of his name correctly. That makes you look like an even bigger douche.
• tiger1990

  I said it 3 years ago on PayPay Huddle & got roundly criticized by the Upper bandwagon clingers, but I'll say it again: Keith Diebler did his son a great disservice by running the horseshit system he ran. Jon's weaknesses were amplified as soon as he hit the OSU campus - the inability to play in a half-court offense or defense. I know Keith had a lot of success with his version of Paul Westhead's system, but he stunted his kid's growth as a basketball player by at least 2-3 years. Just like Bo Kimble, arguably Westhead's "Jon Diebler," the system does not cross-over very well skill-wise when switching to "organized" basketball. Fundamentals are not instilled; it's chaos. You don't need "basketball players" to run it.
  
  I saw Diebler play countless times on STO against inferior league competition that was absolutely brutally coached. The first time I saw him play in person Upper Sandusky got waxed by my Greenfield McClain Tigers at The Schott. McClain is a very disciplined program that prides itself on defense & ball control, rarely even scoring in the 60's even with Dante Jackson on the court at that time. They scored over 100 for the first time in almost 40 years that night. It was pathetic, & I oddly felt angry for Jon because he was put out there on an island by his dad watching McClain make layup after layup. However, to his credit it has always been very evident to me that Jon Diebler has the ability to be a very good basketball player, it's just that he was not coached to be a complete basketball player. That responsibility soon fell on Thad Matta, whom at times I wonder how he finds his way to work each day. Had Keith not had his sights on the OHSAA record books, maybe he could have prepared his son a little more for the next level.
  
  I've always hoped Jon Diebler would do well since he represents Ohio on a national level. He's getting better, but catch & shoot is not his game. He's rotting standing out on the wing waiting for someone to pass him the ball. Matta's offense is predicated on Turner's dribble-drive - there's no cutting, just a lot of standing around. A kid like Diebler needs to be on the move. He'd be a cold-blooded killer in an offense like Wisonsin's or Butler's. Perhaps OSU is just not a good fit? We'll see next year.
• thedynasty1998

  

  I made a mistake, just like you did when you said Hummel hurt his shooting hand. But I didn't jump all over you for that.
  
  Talk about irony.
• Don Provolone

  Tiger1990 has just given the most concise and thought-out response to the story-line of Jon Diebler. OSU had to take Jon - being the All-Time Ohio HS scoring leader - and Tiger is right - the system that hyped and produced Jon and elevated him to star status has been the system that ultimately has led to discussions like this.
  
  The previous scoring leader was a little skinny kid from eastern Ohio (also coached by his father) by the name of Jay Burson. The difference, other than height, was that Burson had the ability to create on his own. This difference is huge in a top division 1 program. Jay Burson went on to have an outstanding career at OSU. Unfortunately for Diebler, the clock is running out on his ability to pick up the creative part of the game. He likely will not. When he's on the floor, the defense has to respect his ability to get hot so they guard him closely, but everything he gets comes from the dribble penetration and kick-out. Jon will finish out as an average player for OSU, get his education, then he can possibly join Keith in the coaching ranks. The unrealistic hype that preceded Jon at OSU did him a real injustice - he will never live up to the hype generated by his HS career. JMHO
• Prescott

  He'd be a cold-blooded killer in an offense like Wisonsin's

  Why would Diebler be different than Jason Bohannon.I think they are similar players and their game logs are comparable.
• tiger1990

  Because Bo gets the most out of all his available talent, & I believe Diebler does have talent, just unutilized talents
• Prescott

  Why would Diebler's talent be better utilized in Wisonsin's offense.
  
  I am not an expert on Wisconsin's offense , but the analyst claim that an important part of that offense is that the gaurds must be able to perform effectively on the blocks. I don't see that skill set in Diebler's game.
  
  When watching Wisconsin, it seems to me that Bo is just as reliant on other players to get him shots as Diebler is and BO can be taken out of a game just like Diebler.
• thedynasty1998

  

  I actually agree that Jon would be better in Wisconsin's offense, because they move so much better without the ball. He needs to be in a motion offense, and not the only guy who works without ball as is the case now.
• 0311sdp

  I think Diebler should be playing in the MAC but the fact that OSU has no inside game hurts him bad, I too would agree that he would be better off in an offense like Wisconsin runs but I don't know if he plays enough defense to play for Bo. He should be better next season with the talent coming in but I think his minutes will be greatly reduced also. He is a victim of his own success at the high school level, he was over-hyped and his lack of athletic ability make it almost impossible for him to live up to those expectations. He is an average college player.
• thedynasty1998

  

  Do you really think he's not athletic enough? I personally don't think that's it. He's got decent athletic ability, but he just doesn't look real smooth and fluid.
  
  I think it's between his head that makes him look like a poor athlete.
• 0311sdp

  thedynasty1998 wrote: Do you really think he's not athletic enough? I personally don't think that's it. He's got decent athletic ability, but he just doesn't look real smooth and fluid.
  
  I think it's between his head that makes him look like a poor athlete.

  I don't think he's a poor athlete, I think he's just an average athlete. It does appear that he lacks quickness and strength at times on defense, and I think on offense he stands around (in the corner) too much. He is a role player at this level and the people who think he will be more than that I'm afraid will be disappointed.
• Nashley25

  Don Provolone wrote: Tiger1990 has just given the most concise and thought-out response to the story-line of Jon Diebler. OSU had to take Jon - being the All-Time Ohio HS scoring leader - and Tiger is right - the system that hyped and produced Jon and elevated him to star status has been the system that ultimately has led to discussions like this.
  
  The previous scoring leader was a little skinny kid from eastern Ohio (also coached by his father) by the name of Jay Burson. The difference, other than height, was that Burson had the ability to create on his own. This difference is huge in a top division 1 program. Jay Burson went on to have an outstanding career at OSU. Unfortunately for Diebler, the clock is running out on his ability to pick up the creative part of the game. He likely will not. When he's on the floor, the defense has to respect his ability to get hot so they guard him closely, but everything he gets comes from the dribble penetration and kick-out. Jon will finish out as an average player for OSU, get his education, then he can possibly join Keith in the coaching ranks. The unrealistic hype that preceded Jon at OSU did him a real injustice - he will never live up to the hype generated by his HS career. JMHO

  Jon will finish out as an average player for OSU???
  
  Are you serious, he will score over a 1,000 pts in career only the 22nd player ever to do that for OSU and he will brake all the 3pt scoring records. If thats average I guess your perseption of average is a bit scewed.
• wkfan

  Nashley25 wrote: Jon will finish out as an average player for OSU???
  
  Are you serious, he will score over a 1,000 pts in career only the 22nd player ever to do that for OSU and he will brake all the 3pt scoring records. If thats average I guess your perseption of average is a bit scewed.

  I look at Diebler scoring 1,000 points over his career as a lifetime achievement award....
  
  1,000 points over 4 years = 250 points per year.
  
  250 points per year over 30 games = 8.1 points per game.
  
  8.1 points per game = average, at best.
  
  'Brake' the all-time 3 point scoring records? Again, a lifetime achievement. How many more 3 point attempts will it take him to break the record?
  
  You simply cannot look at statistics to judge a players career. Don's analysis is spot on regarding Diebler the player....not Diebler's overall statistics.
  
  ETA - through the Purdue game, Diebler has 819 points in 87 games (9.4 ppg). At that rate, should he play in 135 games (Jamar Butler played in 139), he would score 1,269 points. A lot of points...but with a 9.4 ppg average....meh.
  
  I mentioned Jamar Butler...the career leader in both 3 pt shots made and attemtped. Butler was 242 of 650 for 37.2%. Diebler is, through the Purdue game, 199 of 519 for 38.3%. Slightly better shooting percentage, but Diebler averages 5.97 3 point shots per game while Butler averaged 4.67 attempts per game....28% more attempts per game more! I would hope that he would make more!
• thedynasty1998

  

  Excellent post!
• FatHobbit

  

  wkfan wrote:
  I look at Diebler scoring 1,000 points over his career as a lifetime achievement award....
  
  1,000 points over 4 years = 250 points per year.
  
  250 points per year over 30 games = 8.1 points per game.
  
  8.1 points per game = average, at best.
  
  'Brake' the all-time 3 point scoring records? Again, a lifetime achievement. How many more 3 point attempts will it take him to break the record?
  
  You simply cannot look at statistics to judge a players career. Don's analysis is spot on regarding Diebler the player....not Diebler's overall statistics.
  
  ETA - through the Purdue game, Diebler has 819 points in 87 games (9.4 ppg). At that rate, should he play in 135 games (Jamar Butler played in 139), he would score 1,269 points. A lot of points...but with a 9.4 ppg average....meh.
  
  I mentioned Jamar Butler...the career leader in both 3 pt shots made and attemtped. Butler was 242 of 650 for 37.2%. Diebler is, through the Purdue game, 199 of 519 for 38.3%. Slightly better shooting percentage, but Diebler averages 5.97 3 point shots per game while Butler averaged 4.67 attempts per game....28% more attempts per game more! I would hope that he would make more!

  If it's so easy, why doesn't every player who plays four years do it?
• wkfan

  FatHobbit wrote: [If it's so easy, why doesn't every player who plays four years do it?

  Very few Ohio State teams have been as 'shallow' in terms of depth as the teams since Oden, Conley and Cook departed. Matta did not count on those 3 all being one and done, which hampered his recruiting (how many guys (1's and 2's) in Diebler's class wanted to come here and sit behind Cook and Conley?
  
  This led to exactly the lack of depth that you are seeing now....most games there are 7 or 8 names in the box score. If OSU had the depth they would have had if Oden, Conley and Cook had stayed ...or even 1 or 2 of them, or the depth that they will have next year....Diebler would not have anywhere near the minutes that he has enjoyed...and no wher near the 3 pt attempts, shots made or points.
  
  He is at the right place at the right time.
• Nashley25

  Good post FatHobbit but you did miss one stat and that is only 21 or 22 players have ever scored 1000 pts in their carrers at OSU. Granted that number may be higher if players didn't leave early for the NBA which has only been the case the last 15-20 years. So I guess what I am getting at is to be in top tier of scorers at OSU is a pretty good career and acomplishment.
• thedynasty1998

  

  No one said it's easy, and no one said he's a bad player (okay, maybe I did).
  
  But his role since he's been on campus is to be a shooter and hopefully a scorer. He's done that at what would be considered an average level. You have to consider other factors when talking about greatness, like overall play. And other than knocking down some open 3's he hasn't done much else that would make one consider him anything more than a shooter.
• FatHobbit

  

  Nashley25 wrote: Good post FatHobbit but you did miss one stat and that is only 21 or 22 players have ever scored 1000 pts in their carrers at OSU. Granted that number may be higher if players didn't leave early for the NBA which has only been the case the last 15-20 years. So I guess what I am getting at is to be in top tier of scorers at OSU is a pretty good career and acomplishment.

  I'm not sure this should have been directed to me.
• FatHobbit

  

  wkfan wrote: He is at the right place at the right time.

  Actually I can live with that. I don't think Diebler is a superstar, but I think he does a pretty good job doing what he is asked do. If there was more depth maybe he wouldn't have those numbers. But apparently there isn't anyone there, and it's not his fault. I don't understand why people hate him so much.
  

  thedynasty1998 wrote: No one said it's easy, and no one said he's a bad player (okay, maybe I did).

  lol, I'm not sure why you even typed that and then contradicted yourself in parentheses.
  

  thedynasty1998 wrote:But his role since he's been on campus is to be a shooter and hopefully a scorer. He's done that at what would be considered an average level. You have to consider other factors when talking about greatness, like overall play. And other than knocking down some open 3's he hasn't done much else that would make one consider him anything more than a shooter.

  I think this might be why we disagree. I never expected him to be great. He could have never lived up to the hype from his fans when he came to OSU.
• Nashley25

  ^^^yep you're right I ment that for wkfan
• wkfan

  Nashley25 wrote: Good post FatHobbit but you did miss one stat and that is only 21 or 22 players have ever scored 1000 pts in their carrers at OSU. Granted that number may be higher if players didn't leave early for the NBA which has only been the case the last 15-20 years. So I guess what I am getting at is to be in top tier of scorers at OSU is a pretty good career and acomplishment.

  43 players in history of the Ohio State men's basketball program have score more than 1,000 points in their careers. 22 of them played 4 years with one of those 22 playing 5 years (Terrance Dials played 6 games before being injured and being granted a medical redshirt year).
  
  Several played 3 years...many playing when freshmen were ineligible to play (Lucas, Havlichek, Nowell, Freeman, etc) while many played 2 or 3 years due to transferring (Scoonie Penn) or leaving for the NBA (Kellogg, Redd, etc).
  
  Of thos 22 players who played 4 years and scored over 1,000 points, I would consider 3 of them to be 'elite'....Dennis Hopson, Herb Williams and Tony Campbell (Campbell only because he played in the NBA for awhile). That puts Diebler in the company of Jamie Skelton, Ronnie Stokes, Troy Taylor, Curtis Wilson, Jason Singleton, Brent Darby, Carter Scott, etc etc etc as 4 year players who scored over 1,000 points.
  
  Who of that list would you say is 'elite' in terms of Ohio State men's basketball history??
• thedynasty1998

  

  I didn't expect him to be great either. I think the point I'm trying to make is that no one disagrees he's a good shooter. That was to be expected and I think he's lived up to those expectations.
  
  I just never expected him to be so bad in the other areas.
• FatHobbit

  

  wkfan wrote: 43 players in history of the Ohio State men's basketball program have score more than 1,000 points in their careers. 22 of them played 4 years with one of those 22 playing 5 years (Terrance Dials played 6 games before being injured and being granted a medical redshirt year).
  
  Several played 3 years...many playing when freshmen were ineligible to play (Lucas, Havlichek, Nowell, Freeman, etc) while many played 2 or 3 years due to transferring (Scoonie Penn) or leaving for the NBA (Kellogg, Redd, etc).
  
  Of thos 22 players who played 4 years and scored over 1,000 points, I would consider 3 of them to be 'elite'....Dennis Hopson, Herb Williams and Tony Campbell (Campbell only because he played in the NBA for awhile). That puts Diebler in the company of Jamie Skelton, Ronnie Stokes, Troy Taylor, Curtis Wilson, Jason Singleton, Brent Darby, Carter Scott, etc etc etc as 4 year players who scored over 1,000 points.
  
  Who of that list would you say is 'elite' in terms of Ohio State men's basketball history??

  I don't think Diebler has done anything to separate himself from that list. But that's fairly good company to be in and there are people here who don't think he should be a starter. I don't think he's elite, but he does what is asked of him and he's a pretty good starter.
  

  thedynasty1998 wrote: I didn't expect him to be great either. I think the point I'm trying to make is that no one disagrees he's a good shooter. That was to be expected and I think he's lived up to those expectations.

  I can live with that. But I still don't understand why all the hate for Diebler.