How long did it take for Woody to return to "hero status?"

• BigAppleBuckeye

  

  I am only 35, and have only been an OSU fan for 18 years, so I guess this is more for the older guys on here: how long did the "shame" of Woody Hayes punching that Clemson player last? Let's face it, when you go to Columbus, Woody is a God -- but, I HAVE to assume that as soon as that incident happened, a lot of Buckeyes were ashamed of his actions.
  
  I also wonder what Woody's legend would have looked like if the internet was around back then, and he had to face the multitude of media sharks that Tress has been dealing with of late. For the record, I think Tress should have resigned, and this is a good step for OSU. I will miss him and I am thankful for all he has done for Ohio State, but it was time to move on.
  
  So in summary: when I take my future kids to a Buckeye game, will I ever walk down "Tressel Avenue" on the way to the 'Shoe?
• Cat Food Flambe'

  

  I'd say it was about 15 years before anyone could look at Woody's body of work with a realistic frame of reference. Even today., I think the older alumni (I'd put the dividing line at about age 60) are still stuck in the Sixties and tend to overlook his shortcomings.
  
  Not everyone felt Hays was God - many quietly felt that he was becoming a serious millstone around tOSU's neck by 1978. College football had changed drastically since about 1970, and Woody had not and would not. but he was untouchable as a foodball coach, much like Paterno is at Penn State.
  
  His actions at the "Punch Bowl" were , if the truth be told, a gift from the heavens for Hugh Hindman - he had no choice but to fire Woody, avoiding who knows how many years of growing controversy.
  
  Not sure about Tressel's future perception at Ohio State. Programs are held to higher standard today, and I don't think his weaseling around over the last five months will age well. I think if he had be straightforward about matters when the NCAA first came calling, he would certainly have recovered with only some dents in his reputation.
• Writerbuckeye

  

  Woody was forgiven almost immediately.
  
  It wasn't long after that episode that information came out that he'd had serious health issues (uncontrolled diabetes, for one) that may have contributed to his erratic behavior.
  
  More than that, people realized that he lost control in a moment and that one moment generally shouldn't define who you are as a human being.
  
  Woody, like JT, was very active behind the scenes in community programs, charities and the like. Everyone knew that, and players weren't shy about talking about how he'd helped them when they most needed help; and how he'd helped them grow into better people.
  
  I suspect JT's true legacy will remain mostly intact with a bit of tarnish from all this. If you look at his entire body of work, even his most ardent critics concede he has done far more good for players and the game of football; and that all that he accomplished shouldn't be completely wiped out by this poor decision.
  
  In a totally unrelated but peculiar area: JT will end up being one of the most successful Big Ten coaches in history, with one of the top winning percentages, and yet he'll remain a coach who never won a Big Ten Coach of the Year plaque from his peers -- not even the year he won a national title.
• Manhattan Buckeye

  "I suspect JT's true legacy will remain mostly intact with a bit of tarnish from all this. If you look at his entire body of work, even his most ardent critics concede he has done far more good for players and the game of football; and that all that he accomplished shouldn't be completely wiped out by this poor decision."
  
  I agree with this, although for the life of me I don't understand what he was thinking, his record speaks for itself. I don't think they could possibly name a street or building after him but he's not a villain either, just a person that made a really poor decision.
• 0311sdp

  The reasons both were let go ay OSU would be like comparing apples and oranges although both men have a great deal in common. Their love of OSU for one and the respect for our military men another. Woody was forgiven immediately by most OSU fans but was attacked by the Buckeye haters much as Tressel is being crucified. I think Woody was loved and revered more than JT by Buckeye fans and most felt a deep loss and the end of an ERA of OSU football when he was gone. You could not help but like Woody if you were a Buckeye fan, his desire to win and pure hate for that school up north fueld in my opinion the golden age of the OSU/Michigan rivalry. It has not and may never be again like it was between Bo and Woody it truely was at that time the greatest rivalry in sports. I can't believe that Tressel put everything on the line to protect a player who in my opinion has far under achieved expectations. Most of the rest of the football world hates Ohio State (jealousy because of their success) and for a short while will be able to enjoy seeing the Buckeyes kicked around (even if it is off the field) But OSU will bounce back, they always have, this will hurt 2012 recruiting but once a permanent new coach has been named it will be business as usual. I still think OSU can win 10 games this year even if the the tat 5 never play again and I'm more all the time thinking maybe they shouldn't play again. Tressel's legacy will be fine with all the good he has done you can;t just wipe out 106-22 7 Big Ten Championships 8 BCS apperaances 5 BCS wins and look at the way most of his former players are coming to his defense (these are the people who knew him best) But to answwer your questrion Woody never stopped being an OSU hero.
• believer

  

  I've been following Buckeye football since Rex Kern led Ohio State to the 1968 National Championship.
  
  Even when Woody punched the Clemson player only the OSU haters gave Hayes any crap for the incident. True Buckeye fans revered Coach Hayes...and still do.
  
  Even before Tressel made his fateful judgment error, I always looked at Tress as a distant second to Woody. But I still think that over time and as the proverbial dust settles, Tressel's lack of judgment will be far less important than his on-field successes, the way he impacted players' lives, and how he contributed positively to the university in much the same manner as Woody.
  
  Quite frankly I hope the next Buckeye coach is as controversial as Hayes and Tressel...it seems to bring success.
• Al Bundy

  Cat Food Flambe';785450 wrote:College football had changed drastically since about 1970, and Woody had not and would not.

  
  Woody won the Big Ten in 1970,1972,1973,1974,1975,1976,1977. That isn't too bad for a guy who couldn't adjust to the changes in football after 1970
• 1_beast

  

  The Vest will be a staple at The Shoe...just as the black framed glasses and woody attire!
• enigmaax

  Al Bundy;786481 wrote:Woody won the Big Ten in 1970,1972,1973,1974,1975,1976,1977. That isn't too bad for a guy who couldn't adjust to the changes in football after 1970

  
  He also had a 2-6 bowl record in the decade and had lost 3 straight to Michigan leading up to his firing.
• dwccrew

  

  I think there is a HUGE difference between Woody and Tressel. First, what Woody did, however embarassing it may have been, effected Woody not Ohio State. It was one moment in the heat of the moment that could have possibly been a reaction. What Tressel did was over the course of time, intentional and possibly detrimental to the PROGRAM. I don't think you can even begin to compare the two.
  
  I think people are really reaching if they think Tressel will ever be "hero" status. IMO, he has tainted his legacy forever, especially if OSU gets hit with major sanctions and it sets the program back.
• CCwinCC

  is Jimmy Hoffa a hero to you? If so, then Tressel has a chance.
• BR1986FB

  Woody Hayes only mistake was not putting the boots to that kid, NWO style.
• FatHobbit

  

  dwccrew;787414 wrote:I think there is a HUGE difference between Woody and Tressel.

  
  Didn't Woody give his players cash when they needed it? I'm sure I read that he said he had and he would do it again.
• dwccrew

  

  FatHobbit;787438 wrote:Didn't Woody give his players cash when they needed it? I'm sure I read that he said he had and he would do it again.

  
  I'm not sure if he did or not, was it against the rules when he did it? I know the rules have changed a lot since Woody was coaching.
  
  My point earlier was that one coach's decision was very detrimental to the program, the other's decision was detrimental to himself.
• FatHobbit

  

  dwccrew;787443 wrote:I'm not sure if he did or not, was it against the rules when he did it? I know the rules have changed a lot since Woody was coaching.
  
  My point earlier was that one coach's decision was very detrimental to the program, the other's decision was detrimental to himself.

  
  I *think* it was against the rules just not monitored very closely. IMHO Woody would have never survived with all the media scrutiny we have today.
• enigmaax

  FatHobbit;787447 wrote:I *think* it was against the rules just not monitored very closely. IMHO Woody would have never survived with all the media scrutiny we have today.

  
  Yes to all of this. I think I read recently that Ohio State was actually on probation in 1956 as a result of his "loans" to players. They won the national title the next year and there was a lot of the same shit going on everywhere - the core of today's Pac 10 had a bunch of shit come down on them (there was some odd thing where seniors at several schools were only allowed to play like 5 games).
  
  The athletics vs. academics debate was ongoing even back then. In 1961, Ohio St declined a Rose Bowl berth despite pretty much dominating the conference - they didn't play Minnesota, who ended up going to the Rose Bowl with one conference loss. From what I've read, there was quite an uproar about it as it was the faculty council that voted against going (part of it may have had to do with Rose Bowl contract issues, but the primary thing from what I've seen was that professors did not enjoy the perception of OSU as a football factory).
• Al Bundy

  FatHobbit;787438 wrote:Didn't Woody give his players cash when they needed it? I'm sure I read that he said he had and he would do it again.

  
  Back in the 50's white players received more aid than black players did. Woody felt that was wrong and gave the black players the difference, which was an NCAA violation and led to probation. He did claim that he would do it again because he felt it was an injustice.
• Prescott

  Woody's name can't be mentioned without someone referencing the punch. Unfortunately, that link will remain forever.
• enigmaax

  Al Bundy;787522 wrote:Back in the 50's white players received more aid than black players did. Woody felt that was wrong and gave the black players the difference, which was an NCAA violation and led to probation. He did claim that he would do it again because he felt it was an injustice.

  
  Ah yes, the famous OSU "noble cause" excuse. Geez, that one has been around for decades. Below is a vault article from SI at the time the illegal payments were going on. Now, just some perspective, Hayes' salary was around $20,000 a year. Let's compare that to Tressel's salary of $3.5 million per year that was reported recently. Using just the coaches salaries as comparison, that would make the payments of $100 per month about equal to $17,500 dollars per month today. That is way beyond helping a poor kid make ends meet, especially when it is just handed over (not payment for work or a loan).
  
  http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1130745/1/index.htm
  

  And now comes the news about Ohio State. Of course, most people know that masses of fleet halfbacks and beefy guards do not arrive on a given campus through sheer luck. Most everyone also knows that Ohio State is favored to win its third straight Big Ten title this year along with an invitation to the Rose Bowl on New Year's Day. And those who read SI's Oct. 24 issue learned, among more striking matters, that Coach Woody Hayes sometimes lends money from his own pocket to players who are financially strapped. But it was generally assumed that this great football power of the Middle West remained within the rather liberal bounds of Big Ten regulations.
  
  Not so, apparently. After a three-month investigation, Kenneth L. (Tug) Wilson, Commissioner of the Western Conference, announced from Chicago that he was putting OSU "in a state of probationary membership in the intercollegiate conference for a period of no less than one year"; that the university "shall under no circumstances be considered...eligible to represent the conference in the Rose Bowl football game"; and that "none of the athletes who were beneficiaries of the irregularities...shall be presented for eligibility until I have approved satisfactory evidence."
  
  Tug Wilson had traveled to Columbus to find out about Hayes's personal loans to his athletes. Hayes would give him no accounting and simply admitted that during the past five years he had lent about $400 a year to various players in need of help. Wilson looked further and discovered "a serious irregularity" in the off-campus work program which provides OSU athletes, particularly football players, with salaries up to $100 a month and occasionally higher. Most of these jobs are with the state—things like paging for the legislature or clerking for the highway department; but some of the more rabid fans, including prominent Columbus businessmen, also hire athletes. The trouble was that in numerous instances the athletes seemed to have collected their wages in advance, without anybody notably concerned if they ever performed the work for which they had been paid. Naming no names, Wilson declared such players ineligible until they catch up with their back work.
  
  Most of the Ohio State campus and downtown Columbus was in a rage over Wilson's edict. Not that they pleaded innocent. One player summed up the feeling when he said: "If they think we're bad, they should look around at a few other schools." Coach Hayes thought about the punishment and then roared: "No, I don't think it is a bit fair." As an analogy he explained that they pinch a motorist for speeding, "but they don't send him to the gallows, do they?"

  Here's the article, where a brief mention of the payment triggered the investigation. Some of the parallels are interesting, including both the general statements about college football and the OSU fan response to the article (quoted below from another link). There are other elements to the story and the responses which center around the pressures of winning at OSU and the perhaps unrealistic expectations (I'm reminded of the responses after a few Tressel losses, before his recent off-field demise).
  
  http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1130364/6/index.htm
  

  I've just finished reading this article on Woody Hayes (The Ohio State Story, Oct. 24), and I am absolutely disgusted. I just don't see how you could print such utter trash about one of the greatest coaches. It's downright malicious.
  
  I've been with this man now for two football seasons and have found him to be a hard-working and determined coach. Of course he might lose his temper once in a while, but who doesn't?
  
  I think a rhetorical letter should be written immediately and also I think apologies are in order for misinterpreting Mr. Hayes's private and public life.

  If you call this article (which I believe was well written) revealingly reported, I have to disagree. I hate to say this, but SI has dropped a notch in our book because of it. I think I can say as much for many Columbusites, including the downtown second guessers.

  The football players your writer chose to quote never had enough time on the playing fields at OSU to talk authoritatively on the subject—sour grapes always come from those. Better listen to a satisfied customer like the scrappy little redhead, Mr. Cassady. Ohio State has won, and probably always will win, their share of football games due to the fact that our high school football teams turn out the finest material in the country. That is why Ohio State fans think we should win them all.

• Al Bundy

  enigmaax;787614 wrote:Ah yes, the famous OSU "noble cause" excuse. Geez, that one has been around for decades. Below is a vault article from SI at the time the illegal payments were going on. Now, just some perspective, Hayes' salary was around $20,000 a year. Let's compare that to Tressel's salary of $3.5 million per year that was reported recently. Using just the coaches salaries as comparison, that would make the payments of $100 per month about equal to $17,500 dollars per month today. That is way beyond helping a poor kid make ends meet, especially when it is just handed over (not payment for work or a loan).
  

  
  If you calcuate that $400 at 3% inflation over that time period, it is about $2,000 per year in today's money. It was a violation, and the Buckeyes were punished for it. Was it wrong to give black players that same aid as white players? The right think morally and the rules of an organization are not always the same. Woody knew he broke the rules and claimed he would do the same thing again. OSU was one of the leading major college football programs when it came to integration.
• FatHobbit

  

  enigmaax;787614 wrote:Now, just some perspective, Hayes' salary was around $20,000 a year. Let's compare that to Tressel's salary of $3.5 million per year that was reported recently. Using just the coaches salaries as comparison, that would make the payments of $100 per month about equal to $17,500 dollars per month today. That is way beyond helping a poor kid make ends meet, especially when it is just handed over (not payment for work or a loan).

  Al Bundy;787639 wrote:If you calcuate that $400 at 3% inflation over that time period, it is about $2,000 per year in today's money.

  Agreed. I'm too lazy (or ignorant) to do the math, but I don't think you can use percentage of coaches salary to determine what that is equivalent to today. (Because coaching salaries have increased so much.)
• FatHobbit

  

  dwccrew;787414 wrote:I think there is a HUGE difference between Woody and Tressel. First, what Woody did, however embarassing it may have been, effected Woody not Ohio State. It was one moment in the heat of the moment that could have possibly been a reaction. What Tressel did was over the course of time, intentional and possibly detrimental to the PROGRAM. I don't think you can even begin to compare the two.
  
  I think people are really reaching if they think Tressel will ever be "hero" status. IMO, he has tainted his legacy forever, especially if OSU gets hit with major sanctions and it sets the program back.

  
  I also want to point out that Woody did a pretty good job of protecting players too. I think its common knowledge that the police used to look out for players. When they got in trouble, the police would call Woody and he would take care of it. Now they make a big deal out of it. Times are just different. Woody was a legend, but he was not perfect. I like to think Tressel and Woody both did what they thought was best. They may not have been right 100% of the time and I'm sure they made mistakes but they always had good intentions. (Maybe I'm just naive)
• dwccrew

  

  FatHobbit;787861 wrote:I also want to point out that Woody did a pretty good job of protecting players too. I think its common knowledge that the police used to look out for players. When they got in trouble, the police would call Woody and he would take care of it. Now they make a big deal out of it. Times are just different. Woody was a legend, but he was not perfect. I like to think Tressel and Woody both did what they thought was best. They may not have been right 100% of the time and I'm sure they made mistakes but they always had good intentions. (Maybe I'm just naive)

  
  And I 'd like to point out that I am not claiming Woody was a saint or didn't break rules, but what he was ultimately fired for was not a rules violation, it was for hitting an opposing player. What Tressel "resigned" over was a huge scandal and rules violations. The two situations are completely different IMO. Woody's career ended in less controversey and less of a cloud over his head IMO.
• FatHobbit

  

  dwccrew;788561 wrote:And I 'd like to point out that I am not claiming Woody was a saint or didn't break rules, but what he was ultimately fired for was not a rules violation, it was for hitting an opposing player. What Tressel "resigned" over was a huge scandal and rules violations. The two situations are completely different IMO. Woody's career ended in less controversey and less of a cloud over his head IMO.

  
  Fair enough, but I think a lot of the things that made Woody great are traits that Tressel shares. And the traits that got Tressel fired are traits that Woody shared maybe even to a higher degree. I agree the situations are completely different, but I think Woody would have had trouble coaching today with all the media exposure.
• dwccrew

  

  FatHobbit;788655 wrote:Fair enough, but I think a lot of the things that made Woody great are traits that Tressel shares. And the traits that got Tressel fired are traits that Woody shared maybe even to a higher degree. I agree the situations are completely different, but I think Woody would have had trouble coaching today with all the media exposure.

  
  Completely agree.