Are youth pitchers throwing too many pitches?

• Hammerin'Hank

  How many is too many?
  1. Depends on the individual pitcher.
  2. Depends on what part of the season it is.
  3. Depends on the weather (temp.)that particular day.
  4. Depends on how much rest they have had up to that day.
  5. Depends on how much rest they'll get after that day.
  6. Depends on what kind of pitches they are throwing.
  
  Anything else come to mind?
• catchr22

  Depends on how they were trained prior to the point of reference. Because of the poor and/or lack of throwing programs in youth baseball, organizations like COYBL have instituted pitch limitations. In addition, this forces coaches to develop more pitching instead of "burying" an individual "stud"!!! The actual number has too many variables, thus limits depending on age groups, while not universally correct, are better than relying on some of these amateur coaches judgments. Too many of our young pitchers are coming to high school programs with arm problems. Parents need to understand what is right and wrong and participate in organizations that put the athlete's well-being ahead of the coaches' won-lost record!!!
• TALKisCHEAP13

  No, no, no....for any coach that throws a pitcher over 100 pitches in high school is absurd. Any coach that throws a pitcher over 80 pitches is selfish. Im saying 80 pitches is the magic number FOR A WEEK. High School isnt the top. There's college and then the pros. Some high school coaches will take a GREAT pitcher in high school that has everything to go to the next levels...throw him to much and then when he gets into college he has arm surgeries after arm surgeries and that 95 mph fastball is now 80. Ive seen in way to many times.
  
  If your a parent and your kid is good, make sure the coaches take care of him. Athletes will never say I dont want the ball.
• catchr22

  talk--first of all, where are all these 95 mph fastballs you speak of? How many 95's have you seen turn into 80? While I do not disagree with your point of view, there is NO magic number for EVERY pitcher. Quite honestly, I have seen pitchers at differing age levels who could throw a lot of pitches and not get hurt. The type of pitches are also a factor!! True, there are coaches who are selfish and place the almighty W before anything else!! At the same time, in a good throwing program, with bullpens and long toss, there are MANY MORE than 80 pitches thrown in a week!!!
• TALKisCHEAP13

  Off of a mound...80 pitches a week. From my college, there has been 3 potential first rounders in the last 4 years to get the short end of the stick because they cant throw anymore. One of the pitchers was able to bounce back after a couple shoulder surgeries and get back throwing in the low 90's but he is done with the roundball. I have heard of about 100 pitchers go from 90's to 80 all because of over use in college or they were the main pitcher in high school so they threw 2 or 3 times a week.
  
  You can take it or leave it... if your son is throwing over 80 pitches off a mound a week it is only going to hurt your son.
  
  Long toss is good
  Throwing programs off flat ground good
  Lifting LIGHT on the shoulders and arms (biceps triceps) good
  Lifting HEAVY (on occasion) on the legs good
  
  The worst motion out of ANY sport is throwing a baseball off of an elevated area. The human body is not made to do it.
• catchr22

  talk--In my opinion, you are way off on 80. The arm is a muscle and, as such, it has to be used to be strong. The caveat is HOW it is used. Youth coaches are not knowledgable and/or disinterested in proper arm development!!
• TALKisCHEAP13

  How many are you saying is good and bad? The arm is a muscle, however, the most stress goes right on the elbow and shoulder tendons not the muscles.
  
  Another thing...how much pitching have you done in your life? Any college? Any anything?
• catchr22

  I am not setting a magic number. Certainly, at the rec level, I would tend to agree to a lower number as coaches do not know how and/or do not care to take the time to develop a proper throwing program. However, there are good coaches with a strong program that can throw a higher number of pitches without concern. Most notable is Patrick Henry. In all good D-1 programs, a pitcher has some amount of tossing or throwing every day including the day after his mound appearance. True, there is a bone(s) in the arm. However, the concern is on the tendons, ligaments and small muscles of the shoulder that can be strengthened and provide an arm capable of withstanding the stress of pitching within reasonable parameters. The Koreans have some of the strongest, most durable arms in the world. Why?
  They train properly!!!
• thechosenone

  I like the little league rule of limiting pitches, but I HATE the rule of how many innings a kid throws. A kid could throw only 40 pitches in 4 innings and still be great and ready to go. The number of pitches should be limited, but not the innings. It should gradually grow with age also. Like 60 or so 10U, 75 for 12U, 85 for 13U, 90 for 14U, and then unlimited once a player hits high school.
• Fred Flintstone

  Too many pitches, I don't know? They may not be training their arms correctly, they pitch too much and do not throw enough.
  
  Check out this article
  http://www.training-conditioning.com/2007/04/striking_out_conventional_pitc.html
• Mr. 300

  

  thechosenone wrote: I like the little league rule of limiting pitches, but I HATE the rule of how many innings a kid throws. A kid could throw only 40 pitches in 4 innings and still be great and ready to go. The number of pitches should be limited, but not the innings. It should gradually grow with age also. Like 60 or so 10U, 75 for 12U, 85 for 13U, 90 for 14U, and then unlimited once a player hits high school.

  
  I agree. Last year the kids moved up and went from a pitch count to innings pitched. I said the heck with that and kept a counter with me at all times to keep track.
• HitsRus

  

  Limiting a HS pitcher to 80 pitches in a week seems absurdly low, given proper rest between starts. I agree that an arm needs to throw to be developed, so the program in entirety needs to be evaluated. Certainly what a player is doing when when he is not pitching in a game factors in...e.g. is he a catcher also? Almost as important is the kind of pitches he's throwing...From a personal standpont, it is my opinion, that no kid who expects to pitch beyond HS should be throwing a hard slider ( at all)...or excessive amounts of curve balls (whether properly thrown or not).
• darbypitcher22

  

  I'm with everyone on the 80 being absurdly low. If you do your running like you're supposed to and use your legs and follow through it takes a lot of stress off of your arm; from my experience most arm injuries aren't caused by overuse but by mechanical flaws/failures. I know at least 5-7 times over the course of my high school career(freshman to Varsity) I threw 90+ pitches in a game and at least 3 times went over 100. I went over 100 during Legion ball probably 3 to 4 times; threw 100 in a Legion tourney game to save our bullpen and then came back on 3 day and threw 90+ again... why was I able to? because my HS had a good throwing/shoulder muscle development program with band training and I ran after every start I made to get out the lactic acid in my shoulder/elbow.... You can lift lower body out the ass to build strenght if you want; the best thing to do is probably to lift heavy the day after you throw(i've heard of guys doing it the night of their start once they left the game) and then again on your side session day, although it won't be as heavy then.... I agree your shoulders/chest should be worked on at lighter weights but whatever work you do should be equal as to not build up an imbalance in your shoulder. Pitch counts are different for every kid; some bigger kids will be workhorses you can give the ball to time and time again; other kids will get you a couple of good innings every few days and you have to know your squad; the keys I look for in knowing when a kid has hit the wall is first his veocity and two his location; if he's getting the ball up and over the plate he's probably close to the end of his rope
• catchr22

  Darby--solid post with knowledge and understanding. Having said that, I lost all respect for you when I read your last line. I hate the Yankees!! Seriously, deliver the message to coaches and young athletes!! Knowledge is power!!
• HitsRus

  

  Darby...you are talking working the legs heavy and running...agree 100%. What are you talking about in the arms /shoulders? I've been out of the baseball side for a few years...but we never lifted weights duiring season.
• darbypitcher22

  

  In the arms and shoulders its perfectly fine to lift during the season. Now, you're not going to run in there and throw up 300 on the bench press and do a bunch of that, but doing bench presses an flys with dumbells at a heavy weight(low reps), plus band work (I'd have to send you a list of all the band work we do), and you can continue to build shoulder strength throughout the season. Its more important to build up the back part of your shoulder(2 muscles used to decelerate the arm as opposed to the three that accelerate it in the front). When you're lifting do equal work on both arms, not on just your throwing arm, you don't want one side of your body to become stronger than the other. Core work is also necessary and should be done everyday; we accomplish this through an extensive ab routine on non-throwing days as well as a medicine ball program at the college level that builds up the core muscles...
• baseball1414

  I prefer lifting [upper body ] in off season , core and legs all the time and bands and dr. jobes during season
• joebaseball

  

  One thing that some of my pitchers have had success with recently is swimming a few (10-15) laps a day or two after they pitch. In the summer I always have them run after the game, the next morning take a 30 min. walk, and the day after that they swim in the morning and then long toss and throwing routine in the afternoon or before the game.
  
  There are some varying view points on this but I see it as something that helps build the shoulder with some resistance and also work some cardio into the workout.
  
  Here is an article about pitchers using swimming as part of their program
  http://www.qcbaseball.com/skills/conditioning_pitching_swim1.aspx
• darbypitcher22

  

  lfiting in season is not bad for you..... at least to maintain strength