[b]Spiritual believer or not

• Scarlet_Buckeye

  

  Yes, I believe. I have a LOT of questions, however, but I do believe.
• ernest_t_bass

  

  ^^^^
  OK, what Scarlet just posted sums my beliefs up better than I could.
• vikingfan74

  ernest_t_bass wrote: One of my problems is that "All have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God." That is probably my biggest problem. Not the fact that we all sin, but that we measure sins. Christians measure sins more than anyone. God sees sin as sin, and many go out there and act like some sins are worse than others. That is where "hypocrisy" in religion comes from, IMO.
  
  That, and self-righteous people, which I think kinda goes hand-in-hand.

  ernest,
  I understand that many people, including myself, have struggled with these same issues. Many are turned off to 'church' or 'organized religion' because of the hypocrisy they find living within the people involved with these organizations. However, what organizations of people don't have certain members that are self-righteous and hypocritical? If we were all looking for a perfect group of people none of us would have a job because of our co-workers, we wouldn't join a gym because the people around us don't stick to their diets, and certainly none of us would be Browns or Indians fans! I know those are of thin comparison to what religion we choose to follow but you get the point. The church is just like any other group of people, they are just trying to serve a higher calling. You cannot take the humanity out of humans no matter how noble their cause or service may be. I heard someone share a simple thought recently and it put my mind at ease a little.
  
  "I'm a Christian. That doesn't make me perfect it just means I'm forgiven."
  
  I've enjoyed this thread and I truly hope you find what you're looking for.
• ernest_t_bass

  

  I like that quote.
  
  I too consider myself a Christian, but those "issues" I have make it tough to profess it the way I should be. Does that make sense? I am no sure if it makes sense to me
• Strapping Young Lad

  

  Gobuckeyes1 wrote:

  CenterBHSFan wrote: I think one of the problems that some people might have is that, somewhere in time, it has become a "given" that God is going to answer everybody's prayers or to act in mercy upon situations.
  I often wonder when/how that came about to be and why we all sort of expect it.

  I'll take a crack at it...
  
  If I'm not mistaken, one of the main pillars of Christianity is that "God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son..."
  
  In other words, God loves us so much that he sent his son to be sacrificed on our behalf. Yet this same God that loves us so much will not intervene to stop innocent children from being abused, Christian families from being killed in car accidents, genocides of innocent people all around the world, etc. Why would a God that loves us and listens to our pleas for his help ignore us when it would be so easy for an omnipotent being to end the pain of so many good and innocent people. Instead of help we get "Sorry...you wanted free will, now you got it... Is that how a father that loves his children should act?
  
  This is the ongoing struggle between my heart and my brain. My heart wants to believe that there is a God who loves me...but my brain finds it unlikely.

  This pretty much sums me up......I've tried to believe, I've studied books by theologians, listened to lectures, but I just think it's highly unlikely that there is a God.....
  
  To me Christianity seems like a misinterpretation of what the Jews were writing to other Jews at the time they were being enslaved and occupied by other ancient peoples......Many of the things they wrote were simply 'for us (ancient Jews) by us (ancient Jews), so to speak.
  
  We have taken these passages and applied them to our lives, throughout the ages and made it a religion....
  
  Many of the events that we are looking forward to, based on scripture, have in fact already happened and that's what the ancient Jews were writing about....
• ernest_t_bass

  

  Another thing that I will say, as I have kinda touched on so far. I once was "religious" and I DID feel the power of Christ run through me daily.
  
  Having felt that "power," I can't NOT believe that there is a God, or that Christ came to earth. My problems are... "Why did he come? What does God REALLY want?"
• Strapping Young Lad

  

  capninsano wrote: Here is my biggest problem....and I hope someone can provide a solid argument against it because no one I've talked to who believes in god has so far.....
  
  In our early days, we had multiple gods. The god of thunder, lightning, the sea, war, etc.... The reasons these gods were created was to explain things we didn't understand. Why are there waves in the oceans? Where does thunder and lightning come from? What are the lights in the sky we see at night? etc....we used gods to explain these events. But today, we know the answers to almost all of these questions through scientific research that shows these events are not an act of god. So understanding our mistakes from the past (using god as an answer to an unresolved question), why do we still credit our creation to a god? We are doing the same thing as our ancestors thousands of years ago with the creation of the universe...we don't have an answer...so it must be god. Are we no smarter than our ancestors thousands of years ago? I just find it completely irrational to believe that this case is different from the others.
  
  I'm not trying to pick a fight or change anyone's beliefs. I want to believe in god, I truly do. But every argument I come across I feel like there is another logical explanation for things. This is the one argument I have never had a good response to and was hoping the huddle...errr freehuddle can come up with something good.

  Likely that our brains are hardwired to gravitate toward believing in something greater....That's why all cultures regardless of time and space have Gods.....We are definatley not any smarter or more advance biologically than our HUMAN ancestors (as oppsed to PRE-human ancestors, we have more advanced brains than them).
  
  We, living in the present, are just here at a time when we have technology and all that crap, it makes us assume we are smarter...But we have no greater mental capacity than ancient people.....They did amazing things w/ their surroundings, and what they were given ie ancient math/science/astronomy...They did surgery, predicted weather patterns, knew of star systems that could not be seen w/out a telescope (they knew of stars that they COULD NOT SEE!!!!!!!!!).....
  
  I agree though, if we are of the mind-set that our world is going to shat so we'll just pray and hope that God will save us, WE ARE DOOMEd...
• Be Nice

  Religion plays a key role in my life. The "power of prayer" does work.
• cats gone wild

  capninsano wrote: Here is my biggest problem....and I hope someone can provide a solid argument against it because no one I've talked to who believes in god has so far.....
  
  In our early days, we had multiple gods. The god of thunder, lightning, the sea, war, etc.... The reasons these gods were created was to explain things we didn't understand. Why are there waves in the oceans? Where does thunder and lightning come from? What are the lights in the sky we see at night? etc....we used gods to explain these events. But today, we know the answers to almost all of these questions through scientific research that shows these events are not an act of god. So understanding our mistakes from the past (using god as an answer to an unresolved question), why do we still credit our creation to a god? We are doing the same thing as our ancestors thousands of years ago with the creation of the universe...we don't have an answer...so it must be god. Are we no smarter than our ancestors thousands of years ago? I just find it completely irrational to believe that this case is different from the others.
  
  I'm not trying to pick a fight or change anyone's beliefs. I want to believe in god, I truly do. But every argument I come across I feel like there is another logical explanation for things. This is the one argument I have never had a good response to and was hoping the huddle...errr freehuddle can come up with something good.

  If you have God in your life you will know that God does exist and the world was created through Him. If you could feel the Holy Spirit and see answered prayers, and have testimonys like all Christians do, you would understand there is a higher power. When people miraculously get healed of diseases or huge problems, or alcoholics/druggies/porn addicts can get free of their addictions with no wanting to go back................that proves there is a God. All things in this world was created through and because of God. How else would our bodies be perfect, and every thing work correctly? Do you think we would be able to talk, hear, smell, feel, see, etc. without someone making us correct? Believe me, all these traits cant come from a monkey. And if anyone believes in the evolution crap, then why arent humans having monkeys as babies today?
  
  And also, Genesis somes up alot, and the 4 Gospels. Dont believe what scientists say.
• Upper90

  I believe in creation, and God, as I stated earlier....I was raised, and still consider myself to be Muslim, and follow the majority of the pillars of Islam to the best of my ability, or at least the ones that I believe will lead me to live a better life, but even with that, I just have always questioned the "answered prayers" logic, from all followers of any religion.
  
  I mean, the examples could be countless, so I won't give any, but I see some situations where people give an accomplishment to prayer, when it's obviously something that the good will of people have taken upon themselves. And, I've seen situations where people lose everything they have, despite having masses of people pray for them. So, I think I deal with it on a more personal level than just "Well, why are there tsunamis?"
  
  I just think the "power of prayer" thing can be adjusted to fit whatever is necessary.
• wls_color

  I believe there is something "bigger" out there...but I have come to doubt the existence of our biblical "God" over time. I was raised in a very strict, Missouri Synod Lutheran home and remained that way up until HS. I have doubts regarding just about everything though, none of it makes sense. I honestly believe everything has to be created by something...but then...who created God or "a" god? There is too much in life that doesn't make sense, that there isn't a higher power. However, a higher power could be aliens who guided our early ancestors into what we are today....if that did happen, then they could have been seen as gods. Do I believe in aliens then...no, not necessarily....but what can you believe in without solid proof????
  
  Here is what I know, my kids will be introduced to God the father, son and holy spirit. They have all been baptized and I will gladly accompany them to church/Sunday school or any other Christian religious even they may so choose to be involved in. I for one, will doubt. I truly hope there is, and that if there is I find Him (don't really look forward to a lifetime of pain and suffering if I die and don't get saved again). I've gone as far as to recently pray to be filled with the Holy Spirit and get my religious values back. However, much like everything else you pray for...it didn't happen, even though I truly wanted it.
• bamagirl

  I am Christian. I currently don't attend a church due to the one I was attending becoming all about the money to the point the leadership in the church was pretty much forced to step down. Crazy what money makes people do.
  
  Anyway, go to Christian school love, believe it with all I have. People ask how or why do you believe it is just hard to explain I really do literally feel empty without it. If someone wants to hear my story I am more than happy to tell it or listen to yours, but I don't do the whole making some one uncomfortable and pushing it on them I don't really understand that motive.
  
  
  
  

  Upper90 wrote: I believe in creation, and God, as I stated earlier....I was raised, and still consider myself to be Muslim, and follow the majority of the pillars of Islam to the best of my ability, or at least the ones that I believe will lead me to live a better life, but even with that, I just have always questioned the "answered prayers" logic, from all followers of any religion.
  
  I mean, the examples could be countless, so I won't give any, but I see some situations where people give an accomplishment to prayer, when it's obviously something that the good will of people have taken upon themselves. And, I've seen situations where people lose everything they have, despite having masses of people pray for them. So, I think I deal with it on a more personal level than just "Well, why are there tsunamis?"
  
  I just think the "power of prayer" thing can be adjusted to fit whatever is necessary.

  For myself personally I was told by a pastor along time ago, that God answers prayers in three ways. Yes, not now but maybe later, and no. Stuck with me. I think the power of prayer is different for every person. I know people that believe prayer only works if it's hands on, others don't even go to the doctor when they are sick. I really do believe faith is a personal thing, it is your own personal relationship with God and everyone is entitled to their own beliefs.
• Strapping Young Lad

  

  [/quote] All things in this world was created through and because of God. How else would our bodies be perfect, and every thing work correctly? Do you think we would be able to talk, hear, smell, feel, see, etc. without someone making us correct? Believe me, all these traits cant come from a monkey. And if anyone believes in the evolution crap, then why arent humans having monkeys as babies today?
  
  And also, Genesis somes up alot, and the 4 Gospels. Dont believe what scientists say.
  [/quote]
  
  Our bodies DON'T work perfect!!!!!! EVER HEAR OF CANCER!!!!!!!!!! LOOK IT UP AND SEEHOW CANCER WORKS!!!!!!!!!!!!
  
  Why aren't humans having MONKEYS AS BABIES!?!?!?!?! DON'T BELIEVE WHAT SCIENTISTS SAY?!?!?!?!!!!!
  
  YOU are exactly what's wrong with this mind-numbing religious crap!!!!!!! Even the catholic church recognizes that Evolution is viable scientific theory!!!!!!!
  
  Was that post even serious????? I doubt anyone could be that uninformed!!!!!!
• cats gone wild

  Yes my post was 100% serious SYL.
  
  
  And as for the power of prayer, there have been many things in my life that have changed because of the power of prayer. I could give a list of things I know were from God.
• Strapping Young Lad

  

  You honestly think our bodies are perfect????
  
  You think everything works correctly????
  
  And you seriously think if evolution happened we should be giving birth to monkies????
  
  And you think science is bogus??????
  
  I'd love to hear more....
  
  I mean there are people who can defend faith, and give plausible arguments on why there may be a loving God, but those which you mention do not hold any weight in a serious discussion of faith......
  
  I wouldn't be so arrogantly dismissive of sciences, which you obviously don't understand...
  
  Even if the theory of evolution is true, it does not necessarily mean that a loving god does not exist.....
• eersandbeers

  OSH wrote:

  eersandbeers wrote: That's somewhat strange you don't believe in organized religion, but believe Jesus is your lord and savior. Jesus was a specific creation of organization religion.

  Did Jesus "create" this organized religion that we call Christianity that entails of a building, a preacher/pastor/whatever you want to call that person, offering plates, choirs, pews, elders, deacons, etc. etc. etc.
  
  Or did we?
  
  Or are you saying that we that follow "Christianity" created this "Jesus" figure?

  
  I believe Christianity created the Jesus that is talked about in the Bible. There is no historical proof that such a man even existed. Let alone complete the miracles given in the Bible.
• thePITman

  

  I am a believer.
  
  I just find it too incomprehensible that the Earth was formed, our environment developed, and our life forms and human race were created with such perfect biology and functionality to allow us to persevere in this universe. Ever since I went through biology class and learned exactly how perfectly photosynthesis works, or how our body produces energy from food, or how women give birth from intercourse to delivery... how is there no superior being to help with this? That's just my opinion. That is just one part of the rationale behind my spiritual and religious Faith. Others may disagree, but that is my view.
• 3reppom

  

  Religion and Science are different sides of the same coin. I think it's wrong to say that one or the other is correct or incorrect when both seek to find a deeper understanding of the human condition. Personally I come down firmly on the side of science and the scientific method, I am a firm believer in evolution as the best way to understand how we came to be here.
• chicago510

  

  cats gone wild wrote:
  If you have God in your life you will know that God does exist and the world was created through Him. If you could feel the Holy Spirit and see answered prayers, and have testimonys like all Christians do, you would understand there is a higher power. When people miraculously get healed of diseases or huge problems, or alcoholics/druggies/porn addicts can get free of their addictions with no wanting to go back................that proves there is a God. All things in this world was created through and because of God. How else would our bodies be perfect, and every thing work correctly? Do you think we would be able to talk, hear, smell, feel, see, etc. without someone making us correct? Believe me, all these traits cant come from a monkey. And if anyone believes in the evolution crap, then why arent humans having monkeys as babies today?
  
  And also, Genesis somes up alot, and the 4 Gospels. Dont believe what scientists say.

  
  I'm going to leave the religion pushing to you and tackle the scientific things that you fail to realize.
  
  We have acquired the characteristics and abilities though an evolution of our DNA that has taken BILLIONS of years from the first single celled organism to the multicellular organisms that we are today. This evolution is the result of mutations in our DNA which give us new characteristics, some of which are favorable and some of which are not. The favorable mutations are selected for in something called "survival of the fittest". The reason humans do not give birth to monkeys (a ridiculous thought) is because our DNA has changed and evolved and no longer codes for the proteins that form a monkey. Our DNA codes for the proteins that make us human.
  
  And even though this is an astounding process, it is by no means perfect. So many things can go wrong in a life. Some organisms are lost before they are even born (miscarriages), some are born with birth defects due to DNA mutations or environmental problems, and some people develop defects throughout their lifetime. This process is by no means perfect and its why people DIE every single day.
  
  And why do you say that things like hearing, seeing, touching, smelling, and tasting cannot come from a monkey? They are among the smartest organisms on this planet and all of these things that we take for granted have evolved from our ancestors. I won't even touch on the mechanisms that allow us to have incredible senses and thoughts because that could take days.
  
  I have no problems with you believing in whatever you wish, but do not discount this science as fraudulent because you come off looking ridiculous. All of this has been studied and proven for years. Believing in a god should not lead you to dispute proven FACTS.
• Tinkertrain

  Cats Gone Wild has offically displaced belly as the huddle religious nutjob. It's posts like that, the drive more people away from christianity than they ever bring in
• tk421

  

  Yeah, I agree. I have a grandmother like that and that's one reason I don't talk to her hardly at all. Every time, it's God this and that, it drives me nuts.
• Strapping Young Lad

  

  eersandbeers wrote:

  OSH wrote:

  eersandbeers wrote: That's somewhat strange you don't believe in organized religion, but believe Jesus is your lord and savior. Jesus was a specific creation of organization religion.

  Did Jesus "create" this organized religion that we call Christianity that entails of a building, a preacher/pastor/whatever you want to call that person, offering plates, choirs, pews, elders, deacons, etc. etc. etc.
  
  Or did we?
  
  Or are you saying that we that follow "Christianity" created this "Jesus" figure?

  
  I believe Christianity created the Jesus that is talked about in the Bible. There is no historical proof that such a man even existed. Let alone complete the miracles given in the Bible.

  I believe Jesus existed, and was a awesome dude. I'm not sure however if he wasthe Son of God. If Jesus were here today, he'd probably strongly, strongly disagree w/ our way of life......And that's pretty clear from his teachings.
  
  But, I believe it wasn't til Jesus was long gone that the new testament was edited and re-edited to become a holy book....and then they decided to turn this man into the central figure of a religion. It was never Jesus' intention to found a religion and that may have not happened until he had been dead for a while.
  
  It's disputed but many scholars claim that Jesus himself never claimed to be the Messiah and that only shows up generations later when books are being edited into what we now call the New Testament.
• McFly1955

  

  I was raised in a Southern Baptist style church, I now go to a non-denominational church and became a born again Christian 5-6 years ago around 18 years old.
  
  I can't show someone proof, it's something that I know inside as I'm sure other Christians understand, but it's hard to explain to others.
  
  As for the science vs. creation talk....I know I'm not going to change the mind of someone who pushes the scientific thought process, but I find it very hard to believe that people actually think that everything came from nothing and just gradually progressed....Earth just happens to be in the perfect location in our solar system that it is livable and we just had the resources that we needed to grow as a civilization by coincedence...I know to some people believing in 1 God is a far-fetched idea, but not more far fetched than the ideas above, IMO....
• Strapping Young Lad

  

  Here's what I never understood, bout the something from nothing argument......How do we know there was nothing here before our universe. I'm no physicist so I may be in over my head, but couldn't there have been something else here that contracted upon itself and caused our universe to then explode??????
  
  Or would we be able to know if that was the case????
  
  And, just because something (our universe) had to come from something else, why does that something else or first cause have to be God????? Couldn't it have been some other physical process????
  
  Hope someone can help answer these!!!!!!!!!!
• jjhacker

  Believe it or not, I'm probably a stricter Christian than O-Trap is.