Humans are inherently aggressive OR goodness in humanity

• SportsAndLady

  

  Thomas Hobbes vs. Jean-Jacques Rousseau
  
  Which philosopher do you believe?
  
  Do you believe humans are born with a "bad" instinct
  or
  Do you think they inherit these "bad" traits through society?
• gorocks99

  

  Hobbes. We're born with instincts that are neither bad nor good, but society has deemed them as such.
• hasbeen

  

  It's both, as is most cases when comparing two polar opposites.
  
  Society causes us to have a "chip on the shoulder," but we are also born with instincts that react to society.
• gorocks99

  

  Is the instinct of reacting to society necessarily, inherently, good or bad? Or, are the values constructed by society good and bad?
• mattinctown

  Inherit through society
• bamagirl

  I am a Psychology Major...so I am not even going to begin to discuss my opinions. haha
• I Wear Pants

  gorocks99 wrote: Hobbes. We're born with instincts that are neither bad nor good, but society has deemed them as such.

• hasbeen

  

  gorocks99 wrote: Is the instinct of reacting to society necessarily, inherently, good or bad? Or, are the values constructed by society good and bad?

  Okay, I definitely agree with this.
  
  Then we can argue if there is an instinct to kill, rob, etc. I'm not sure where I stand on that.
• I Wear Pants

  Not an instinct to do those particular actions but to do whatever it takes to survive/thrive. Which sometimes is seen to be killing, robbing, etc.
• hasbeen

  

  I Wear Pants wrote: Not an instinct to do those particular actions but to do whatever it takes to survive/thrive. Which sometimes is seen to be killing, robbing, etc.

  I think there are some people who have an instinct to kill. There are people don't kill to survive, they kill because they have blood lust.
• gut

  Learned behaviors. Society has incentives and disincentives for all types of behavior and like any animal humans react to those incentives.
  
  Concepts like sharing and compassion I don't believe are instinctual and would also be among the first "good" behaviors to go when society/law breaks down.
  
  That said, higher orders of animals organize and have a heirarchy and extended families, so you could make arguments that sharing and compassion ARE instinctual, to a degree, because grouping and group dynamics are instinctual to a degree.
• gut

  I don't think murder is an instinct. I'm not aware of animals who instinctually fight to the death.
• FatHobbit

  

  All people are different. It's a mistake to try to make general statements that encompass everyone.
• 3reppom

  

  gut wrote: I don't think murder is an instinct. I'm not aware of animals who instinctually fight to the death.

  Murder is a societal construct. the act of killing is an amoral act. Man A shoots and kills man B. Is that act in and of itself wrong? most people would say yes. Change the circumstances and say that man A shot and killed man B because man B threatened the wife and children of man A. Is that act in and of itself wrong? most people would say no.
• ernest_t_bass

  

  Yes
• jmog

  Inherently "bad" and have to choose to be good.
• ernest_t_bass

  

  I'm actually with those that say we just have the instincts. Society says they're bad.
• gut

  3reppom wrote:

  gut wrote: I don't think murder is an instinct. I'm not aware of animals who instinctually fight to the death.

  Murder is a societal construct. the act of killing is an amoral act. Man A shoots and kills man B. Is that act in and of itself wrong? most people would say yes. Change the circumstances and say that man A shot and killed man B because man B threatened the wife and children of man A. Is that act in and of itself wrong? most people would say no.

  I'm not talking about the morality of it. Killing in self-defense is natural. Senseless killing is not. Morality is a human construct. Useless murder does not exist naturally in the animal kingdom, although there may are probably a few examples.
• ernest_t_bass

  

  There are plenty of species that kill one another. There are animal species who kill their young if they are unfitting. There is a species where, if they only have one baby, will either kill it or abandon it b/c they desire to have litters.
  
  Some species will even sell their young for beer.
• cbus4life

  Rousseau
• gut

  ernest_t_bass wrote: There are plenty of species that kill one another.

  But not for any reason that can't be explained by Darwin. Murder, except in self-defense, is not natural. That's why dogs and chickens have to be trained to fight to the death.
  
  Maybe you can make the argument that getting those wires crossed is a naturally unnatural occurrence. A homicidal animal probably won't live long enough to be observed in the wild. I suppose I can buy that.
• ernest_t_bass

  

  There are reasons behind every murder. Psychological, etc. There are reasons.
  
  I don't think there are many (if any) murders that go:
  
  #1 - "Hey, how you doing?"
  #2 - "Good, how are you?"
  #1 - "Fine... whack! Haha, you're dead!"
  #2 - "WTF?"
  
  There is explanation behind everything. With humans, I think it is chemical, or perhaps divine. You throw emotions in there too. Jealousy. There are explanations.
• gut

  ernest_t_bass wrote: There is explanation behind everything. With humans, I think it is chemical, or perhaps divine. You throw emotions in there too. Jealousy. There are explanations.

  But that's not natural or instinctual, it's a learned behavior, generally speaking. Chemical imbalance, maybe, could be considered "naturally unnatural".
  
  Killing your own kind is simply not natural or instinctual. In the animal kingdom, it's exclusively related to defense or survival. They don't fight to the death and you don't see two otherwise "friendly" lions just randomly go off and try to kill the other.
• ernest_t_bass

  

  Mothers killing there young b/c they only had ONE and wanted a litter is neither "defense or survival."
• FatHobbit

  

  gut wrote:

  ernest_t_bass wrote: There is explanation behind everything. With humans, I think it is chemical, or perhaps divine. You throw emotions in there too. Jealousy. There are explanations.

  But that's not natural or instinctual, it's a learned behavior, generally speaking. Chemical imbalance, maybe, could be considered "naturally unnatural".
  
  Killing your own kind is simply not natural or instinctual. In the animal kingdom, it's exclusively related to defense or survival. They don't fight to the death and you don't see two otherwise "friendly" lions just randomly go off and try to kill the other.

  If you skip past the abortion stuff, there is a bit of info about animals that kill their own kind. http://en.allexperts.com/q/Wild-Animals-705/Animals-kill-young.htm