Clinton and Chinagate

• eersandbeers

  I was doing a report and this was the first time I came across this topic. What amazes me most is this has been able to remain quiet for so many years.
  
  The event was long and complicated, but the short run down is the Clinton administration took political donations from Chinese agents, and in return, turned a blind eye to their illegal spying by muzzling the intelligence agencies and the Justice Department.
  
  This is seen as the biggest loss of U.S. intelligence in history. Not only was China able to replace 1950's-era nuclear weapons, but they brought theirs arsenal to the level of the United States.
  
  This is one of the worst cases of political corruption in our history, and it is really not talked about. Clinton should be sitting rotting in a jail for his cover up of Chinese actions.
  
  As I dove deeper into the report, I was just amazed how many secrets the Chinese stole with the help of the Clinton administration.
• LJ

  

  I'm going to approve this for now, but you need to cite some sources in the next 24 hours or the thread will be locked.
• eersandbeers

  House report of the Select Committee on U.S. national security and military/commercial concerns with the People's Republic of China (what was stolen)
  
  Testimony from Senator Inhofe regarding Clinton's political corruption
  
  
  And if you want a book on it, read Year of the Rat by William Triplett.
• LJ

  

  Works for me. Thanks!
• Shane Falco

  Why are you shocked?
  
  Not old enough to have been paying attention during those years?
  
  Only difference between Wild Bill and Obama is Clinton is a true politician and Obama is a self loving radical.
• ptown_trojans_1

  

  First, broadly, we have a horrible history of stopping espionage in this country going back to the founding to FBI Agent Hansen. Foreign countries find ways to infiltrate our best secrets.
  
  Second, The report did not specifically name Clinton, the testimony did. But, Inhofe is known as a hardcore R and this was 1999, a very partisan time against Clinton. That is to be kept in mind.
  But, the Cox report is another thing to read on the subject btw.
  
  Third, for my work my boss is examining Chinese nuclear and anti-satellite espionage, and has had me look over several court cases over the past 10 years that have focused on Chinese nationals stealing and funneling nuclear secrets, weapons technology and advanced weaponry from labs and contract firms. (The docs and names are at my office)
  So, the problem was not limited to Clinton and Bush officials were also having a hard time containing Chinese espionage as well.
  
  Fourth, even if this was the advanced nuclear technology, the fact that it has not upset the strategic nature and the Chinese nuclear doctrine is significant. It has not allowed China to adopt a more hardline nuclear posture or radically ramp up their nuclear stockpile. China still maintains a no first use policy and still has less nuclear weapons than Britain and France.
  
  Finally, that said, it is still a concern and even today, there are serious risks to weapon firm and labs due to fear or espionage. Good stuff though. Thanks for the report eers. I've heard about it, but never read the whole thing.
• gibby08

  

  Had this been a big deal....Clinton would have been thrown out of office and put in jail
  
  But was he?
• eersandbeers

  ptown_trojans_1 wrote: First, broadly, we have a horrible history of stopping espionage in this country going back to the founding to FBI Agent Hansen. Foreign countries find ways to infiltrate our best secrets.

  Agreed. One of the other cases I'm researching is the Hanssen case, and the lack of internal safeguards at the FBI during that time is laughable. Literally none existed. Hanssen was far from the master spy the FBI likes to present him as.
  

  ptown_trojans_1 wrote: Second, The report did not specifically name Clinton, the testimony did. But, Inhofe is known as a hardcore R and this was 1999, a very partisan time against Clinton. That is to be kept in mind.
  But, the Cox report is another thing to read on the subject btw.

  Well I think the political connections were clear. Clinton had connections to Riady all the way back to his time as governor. His further connections to John Huang, Johnnie Chung, Charlie Trie, and Maria Hsia were all quite clear also.
  

  ptown_trojans_1 wrote: Third, for my work my boss is examining Chinese nuclear and anti-satellite espionage, and has had me look over several court cases over the past 10 years that have focused on Chinese nationals stealing and funneling nuclear secrets, weapons technology and advanced weaponry from labs and contract firms. (The docs and names are at my office)
  So, the problem was not limited to Clinton and Bush officials were also having a hard time containing Chinese espionage as well.

  I'm not trying to paint it as purely a Clinton problem. The Chinese were stealing nuclear secrets since the 70's.
  
  The difference is Clinton intentionally covered up and protected those Chinese agents because they were his biggest political donors.
  
  

  ptown_trojans_1 wrote: Fourth, even if this was the advanced nuclear technology, the fact that it has not upset the strategic nature and the Chinese nuclear doctrine is significant. It has not allowed China to adopt a more hardline nuclear posture or radically ramp up their nuclear stockpile. China still maintains a no first use policy and still has less nuclear weapons than Britain and France.

  
  I'd say it upset the strategic balance of power a great deal. Here are a couple of quotes from the Cox Report:
  
  
  The People’s Republic of China (PRC) has stolen design information on the United States’ most advanced thermonuclear weapons.
  
  These thefts of nuclear secrets from our national weapons laboratories enabled the PRC to design, develop, and successfully test modern strategic nuclear weapons sooner than would otherwise have been possible. The stolen U.S. nuclear secrets give the PRC design information on thermonuclear weapons on a par with our own.
  
  The stolen U.S. nuclear secrets give the PRC design information on thermonuclearweapons on a par with our own. Currently deployed PRC ICBMs targeted on U.S. cities are based on 1950s-era nuclear weapons designs. With the stolen U.S. technology, the PRC has leaped, in a handful of years, from 1950s-era strategic nuclear capabilities to the more modern thermonuclear weapons designs. These modern thermonuclear weapons took the United States decades of effort, hundreds of millions of dollars, and numerous nuclear tests to achieve
  
  
  It allowed China to achieve our level of technology in a relatively short period of time. Those few statements show just how severe this loss of information was. Not to mention, China spread that information to other countries in the world.
  
  I know William Triplett is a hardline former military man, but he doesn't necessarily believe the same thing about China's peaceful intentions.
  
  I know this is your area of expertise, so maybe the report was being overly dramatic. The report did not mention Clinton's corruption a single time though. It merely stuck to the facts.
• eersandbeers

  Shane Falco wrote: Why are you shocked?
  
  Not old enough to have been paying attention during those years?
  
  Only difference between Wild Bill and Obama is Clinton is a true politician and Obama is a self loving radical.

  Well I wasn't old enough to care at that time, but I only heard this in passing and there are claims the liberal media largely swept this under the rug due to Clinton's popularity.
• believer

  

  eersandbeers wrote:Well I wasn't old enough to care at that time, but I only heard this in passing and there are claims the liberal media largely swept this under the rug due to Clinton's popularity.

  In 10-15 years some youngster writing new reports will have similar "revelations" about the liberal media sweeping Obama abuses under the rug due to his popularity.
  
  The media has a history of giving Dem presidents free passes while scrutinizing every move of Repub presidents.
• Apple

  

  believer wrote:

  eersandbeers wrote:Well I wasn't old enough to care at that time, but I only heard this in passing and there are claims the liberal media largely swept this under the rug due to Clinton's popularity.

  In 10-15 years some youngster writing new reports will have similar "revelations" about the liberal media sweeping Obama abuses under the rug due to his popularity.
  
  The media has a history of giving Dem presidents free passes while scrutinizing every move of Repub presidents.

  ^^^There's the understatement of the day!
• Little Danny

  

  To steal a couple lines from some other forums :
  
  "Hey did you know that Jerome Bettis is from Detroit?"
  
  "Did you know AJ Hawk is dating Brady Quinn's sister?"
  
  "Did you know Clay Aiken was gay?"
• Bigdogg

  Page one of the report:
  
  The People’s Republic of China (PRC) has stolen design
  information on the United States’ most advanced
  thermonuclear weapons.
  • The Select Committee judges that the PRC’s next generation
  of thermonuclear weapons, currently under development,
  will exploit elements of stolen U.S. design information.
  • PRC penetration of our national weapons laboratories spans
  at least the past several decades and almost
  certainly continues today.
  
  Why is this thread continuing? I could site a blog that claims GW Bush was from mars. Here is a report that lays blame on Reagan. Take it with the same grain of salt I did with the one about Clinton.
  
  http://www.consortiumnews.com/2005/110305.html
• CenterBHSFan

  

  Bigdog,
  
  There's lots of administration bashing that goes on in politics. Why would Clinton escape the melee? He certain had his share of faults too. Look, I voted for the guy (Clinton), but I'm not going to act like somebody slapped my mother for any critcisms toward him or his administration.
  
  As far as I can tell, eers just had to provide a link which is a general rule.
• BCSbunk

  believer wrote:

  eersandbeers wrote:Well I wasn't old enough to care at that time, but I only heard this in passing and there are claims the liberal media largely swept this under the rug due to Clinton's popularity.

  In 10-15 years some youngster writing new reports will have similar "revelations" about the liberal media sweeping Obama abuses under the rug due to his popularity.
  
  The media has a history of giving Dem presidents free passes while scrutinizing every move of Repub presidents.

  The media has no such history it is just your tainted bias view of what you read.
• majorspark

  

  Bigdogg wrote: Yes LJ I can see why you let this thread continue bashing the Clinton administration. Here is a report that lays blame on Reagan. Take it with the same grain of salt I did with the one about Clinton.

  If I was LJ I would delete your post just for the hell of it, knowing you would be going nuts behind your computer's monitor. Since you believe he is some right wing overlord ensuring we on this forum disseminate his propaganda. Just post your opinion.
• CenterBHSFan

  

  majorspark wrote:

  Bigdogg wrote: Yes LJ I can see why you let this thread continue bashing the Clinton administration. Here is a report that lays blame on Reagan. Take it with the same grain of salt I did with the one about Clinton.

  If I was LJ I would delete your post just for the hell of it, knowing you would be going nuts behind your computer's monitor. Since you believe he is some right wing overlord ensuring we on this forum disseminate his propaganda. Just post your opinion.

  You're a bad, badddd influence, Spark!
• jhay78

  

  gibby08 wrote: Had this been a big deal....Clinton would have been thrown out of office and put in jail
  
  But was he?

  I think what you meant to say was, "Had this been George W. Bush, the mainstream media would've been foaming at the mouth trying to tell it to the American people and it would've been front-page news for months until he faced impeachment by the Senate."
• ptown_trojans_1

  

  eersandbeers wrote:

  ptown_trojans_1 wrote: First, broadly, we have a horrible history of stopping espionage in this country going back to the founding to FBI Agent Hansen. Foreign countries find ways to infiltrate our best secrets.

  Agreed. One of the other cases I'm researching is the Hanssen case, and the lack of internal safeguards at the FBI during that time is laughable. Literally none existed. Hanssen was far from the master spy the FBI likes to present him as.

  
  
  Also, there are the numerous year of the spy ones-Ames included.

  eersandbeers wrote:

  ptown_trojans_1 wrote: Second, The report did not specifically name Clinton, the testimony did. But, Inhofe is known as a hardcore R and this was 1999, a very partisan time against Clinton. That is to be kept in mind.
  But, the Cox report is another thing to read on the subject btw.

  Well I think the political connections were clear. Clinton had connections to Riady all the way back to his time as governor. His further connections to John Huang, Johnnie Chung, Charlie Trie, and Maria Hsia were all quite clear also.

  I don't deny the links, but question the strong language saying Clinton personally knew and purposely covered it up. That is like trying to link Reagan to Iran contra, it is simple to do, but hard to prove.
  

  eersandbeers wrote:

  ptown_trojans_1 wrote: Third, for my work my boss is examining Chinese nuclear and anti-satellite espionage, and has had me look over several court cases over the past 10 years that have focused on Chinese nationals stealing and funneling nuclear secrets, weapons technology and advanced weaponry from labs and contract firms. (The docs and names are at my office)
  So, the problem was not limited to Clinton and Bush officials were also having a hard time containing Chinese espionage as well.

  I'm not trying to paint it as purely a Clinton problem. The Chinese were stealing nuclear secrets since the 70's.
  
  The difference is Clinton intentionally covered up and protected those Chinese agents because they were his biggest political donors.

  Agreed.
  By the way, two of the names that have spied for the Chinese recently are
  Ko-Suen Moon and Greg Bergerson.
  

  eersandbeers wrote:

  ptown_trojans_1 wrote: Fourth, even if this was the advanced nuclear technology, the fact that it has not upset the strategic nature and the Chinese nuclear doctrine is significant. It has not allowed China to adopt a more hardline nuclear posture or radically ramp up their nuclear stockpile. China still maintains a no first use policy and still has less nuclear weapons than Britain and France.

  
  I'd say it upset the strategic balance of power a great deal. Here are a couple of quotes from the Cox Report:
  
  
  The People’s Republic of China (PRC) has stolen design information on the United States’ most advanced thermonuclear weapons.
  
  These thefts of nuclear secrets from our national weapons laboratories enabled the PRC to design, develop, and successfully test modern strategic nuclear weapons sooner than would otherwise have been possible. The stolen U.S. nuclear secrets give the PRC design information on thermonuclear weapons on a par with our own.
  
  The stolen U.S. nuclear secrets give the PRC design information on thermonuclearweapons on a par with our own. Currently deployed PRC ICBMs targeted on U.S. cities are based on 1950s-era nuclear weapons designs. With the stolen U.S. technology, the PRC has leaped, in a handful of years, from 1950s-era strategic nuclear capabilities to the more modern thermonuclear weapons designs. These modern thermonuclear weapons took the United States decades of effort, hundreds of millions of dollars, and numerous nuclear tests to achieve
  
  
  It allowed China to achieve our level of technology in a relatively short period of time. Those few statements show just how severe this loss of information was. Not to mention, China spread that information to other countries in the world.
  
  I know William Triplett is a hardline former military man, but he doesn't necessarily believe the same thing about China's peaceful intentions.
  
  I know this is your area of expertise, so maybe the report was being overly dramatic. The report did not mention Clinton's corruption a single time though. It merely stuck to the facts.

  I'm not a huge fan of the Cox report, as i think it takes a very hard line on the Chinese, worst case assessment. It is interesting, but I take it with a grain of salt. As Jefferey Lewis writes, (the original form back in 2004, but can't find any updated one online) http://www.cissm.umd.edu/papers/files/the_minimum_means_of_reprisal.pdf, the U.S. intelligence community has a history of overstating the Chinese threat.
  
  That said, while this was and is an issue, it by no means dramatically changed the strategic nuclear doctrine or posture of China.
  
  While the designs are a huge loss, the fact is I'm not sure China can actually replicate the modern warheads, given the use of the top secret Fogbank material http://www.armscontrolwonk.com/1814/fogbank Since, the U.S. has a hard time making this stuff, I'm not totally sure the Chinese can make and mass produce it as well.
  
  Also, I have yet to come across any information about China selling or dealing off the design to other countries.
  
  You are not overly dramatic at all, in fact it is good to bring the issue of Chinese espionage to light, both Clinton and Bush years.
• LJ

  

  majorspark wrote:

  Bigdogg wrote: Yes LJ I can see why you let this thread continue bashing the Clinton administration. Here is a report that lays blame on Reagan. Take it with the same grain of salt I did with the one about Clinton.

  If I was LJ I would delete your post just for the hell of it, knowing you would be going nuts behind your computer's monitor. Since you believe he is some right wing overlord ensuring we on this forum disseminate his propaganda. Just post your opinion.

  Sounds like a plan. I have no idea what Bigdogg's problem is, but he needs to get over it. There's only so much of his bullshit that I can take before it turns into a personal attack. I know, let's make it his final warning.
  
  Bigdogg, this is your final warning. If you want to accuse me and discuss what you seem to think is an issue, you need to PM me. Next time, I will delete your post. After that it's a forum ban, all you are doing is attacking me and shitting on threads, which is against the rules of this forum.
  
  Ok, thread carry-on
• Bigdogg

  LJ wrote:

  majorspark wrote:

  Bigdogg wrote: Yes LJ I can see why you let this thread continue bashing the Clinton administration. Here is a report that lays blame on Reagan. Take it with the same grain of salt I did with the one about Clinton.

  If I was LJ I would delete your post just for the hell of it, knowing you would be going nuts behind your computer's monitor. Since you believe he is some right wing overlord ensuring we on this forum disseminate his propaganda. Just post your opinion.

  Sounds like a plan. I have no idea what Bigdogg's problem is, but he needs to get over it. There's only so much of his bullshit that I can take before it turns into a personal attack. I know, let's make it his final warning.
  
  Bigdogg, this is your final warning. If you want to accuse me and discuss what you seem to think is an issue, you need to PM me. Next time, I will delete your post. After that it's a forum ban, all you are doing is attacking me and shitting on threads, which is against the rules of this forum.
  
  Ok, thread carry-on

  I will not PM you. I prefer open debate on this subject. You made it perfectly clear on here that you have the power to let people post what YOU decide is appropriate. Funny thing is that your disclaimer says "The following is a free discussion forum." Is it or is it not? You seem to let people make up all sorts of things on here without any facts and nothing is done about it. I pointed out that you have not been consistent as a moderator and now you are upset with me. How is this topic not in violation of rule #4?
  I told you before you want to ban me because I have a different view of the majority opinion of the posters on here go ahead if it make you feel better. I really do not care what your political leanings are. If you are not going to be consistent then I have no further use to post on here anyway. You want to turn this into a conservative love-fest go ahead. I can always find somewhere else to discuss politics that is serious about having open dialog.
• LJ

  

  Next person to thread shit gets a 1 week forum ban.
• eersandbeers

  Bigdogg wrote: Page one of the report:
  
  The People’s Republic of China (PRC) has stolen design
  information on the United States’ most advanced
  thermonuclear weapons.
  • The Select Committee judges that the PRC’s next generation
  of thermonuclear weapons, currently under development,
  will exploit elements of stolen U.S. design information.
  • PRC penetration of our national weapons laboratories spans
  at least the past several decades and almost
  certainly continues today.
  
  Why is this thread continuing? I could site a blog that claims GW Bush was from mars. Here is a report that lays blame on Reagan. Take it with the same grain of salt I did with the one about Clinton.
  
  http://www.consortiumnews.com/2005/110305.html

  
  I don't care about your partisan hurt feelings. I think it is clear I am also quite far from a conservative so I don't know what to tell you over your hurt feelings due to Clinton's illegal actions.
  
  And I hardly cited a blog. I cited Congressional testimony from a Senator, and I provided a book that details all of the Chinese connections for Clinton.
  

  ptown_trojans_1 wrote:
  I don't deny the links, but question the strong language saying Clinton personally knew and purposely covered it up. That is like trying to link Reagan to Iran contra, it is simple to do, but hard to prove.

  I guess it would be more fair to say he hampered investigations from the Justice Department.
  

  ptown_trojans_1 wrote: I'm not a huge fan of the Cox report, as i think it takes a very hard line on the Chinese, worst case assessment. It is interesting, but I take it with a grain of salt. As Jefferey Lewis writes, (the original form back in 2004, but can't find any updated one online) http://www.cissm.umd.edu/papers/files/the_minimum_means_of_reprisal.pdf, the U.S. intelligence community has a history of overstating the Chinese threat.
  
  That said, while this was and is an issue, it by no means dramatically changed the strategic nuclear doctrine or posture of China.
  
  While the designs are a huge loss, the fact is I'm not sure China can actually replicate the modern warheads, given the use of the top secret Fogbank material http://www.armscontrolwonk.com/1814/fogbank Since, the U.S. has a hard time making this stuff, I'm not totally sure the Chinese can make and mass produce it as well.
  
  Also, I have yet to come across any information about China selling or dealing off the design to other countries.
  
  You are not overly dramatic at all, in fact it is good to bring the issue of Chinese espionage to light, both Clinton and Bush years.

  
  Fair enough. I don't know enough about the nuclear technologies presented in the Cox Report to say one way or another. I can only rely on the report.
  
  I just thought it was interesting they said China went from 1950's nuclear weapons to being on par with ours.
• QuakerOats

  gibby08 wrote: Had this been a big deal....Clinton would have been thrown out of office and put in jail
  
  But was he?

  It was a huge 'deal', except the media completely buried it. Jim Quinn, syndicated radio host, was all over this in the '90's, but the mainstream media simply looked the other way .... just like they always do when giving their liberal brethren a pass.
  
  What Clinton gave away in return for campaign contributions was staggering.
• Cleveland Buck

  

  eersandbeers wrote: I don't care about your partisan hurt feelings.

  LOL