Intelligent Design: Viable Theory or Religious Rewording?

• jmog

  I'm wondering why anyone is still talking about it in a science class?
  
  I think just about everyone who believes in some form of ID on this thread has said that it should not be in a science class, but in a philosophy class.
• BCSbunk

  jmog wrote:

  BCSbunk wrote:

  jmog wrote: Show me the "reptile-mammal" or the "bird-mammal" transitions, I'd love to see them.
  
  Again, your use of the word "fact" is hilarious when its nothing more than your opinion.
  
  Actually, the more they dig up the more often they find dinosaur bones with soft tissue in it like blood, etc that is impossible to last millions of years in the ground/rocks. That is typically left out even though there have been MANY dinosaur skeletons dug up with soft tissue found that wasn't fossilized.

  Sphenacodon
  
  Biarmosuchia
  
  Thrinaxodon
  
  Probainognathus
  
  Diarthrognathus
  
  Those are reptile-mammal transitions. Now which of the how to argue like a creationist fallacies will you invoke?
  
  Now on to the nonsense about soft tissue.
  
  You have no clue to what you are talking about. There has been soft tissue found in T-rex Thighbone NOT many samples which is ambigious.
  
  The great thing about science is it keeps on looking for answers. Turns out that the "blood" and "soft tissue" may not be soft tissue and blood at all.
  
  But instead Biofilm. http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0002808

  Thanks for the reading material, I am definitely looking up those fossil records and going to learn more about it.
  
  However, you are wrong, it has NOT been just one T-Rex. It has been a few, and it appears to be in nearly any dinosaur they actually crack the bones open instead of saving them for museums.

  IF you look at my post I did not say ONE. I said and I quote There has been soft tissue found in T-rex Thighbone.
  
  Now there was a grammar error as I should have spelled Thighbone Thighbones I left off the s for plural. It still not not many samples the samples are few.
• BCSbunk

  jmog wrote:

  ManO'War wrote: Jmog, according to google (your source), the earliest "civilizatons" were 6,500 years ago. The earliest "settlements" were 10,000 years ago. The earliest calendar goes back 6,251 years ago.
  
  Also, Chinese history goes back 7,000 to 8,000 years ago, with the ruins of the Daxi culture. So that doesn't give too much time for old Adam and Eve, assuming they are white, to become Asian.
  
  Oh, that's right, you don't believe in evolution. So how does the bible explain all the different variations in humans around the globe??

  1. Who said Adam and Eve were white?
  2. Chinease history does not go back to 8000 years, I stated the earliest Chinese dynasty up above.
  3. The earliest calendar goes back, by your own admission, about 6000 years...interesting since any young Earth believer says thats roughly how long humans have been around.
  4. No great dating records proof civilizations of 10k years, they use methods we have already discussed to "date" the artifacts of some civilizations.
  5. If you actually read what I've said, I believe fully in microevolution (adaptation within a species to its environment), just not macroevolution. So, there goes your theory that I don't believe Adam and Eve could have "evolved" into all of the races over time.

  Chinese history does go back approx 8000 years the first dynasty is not indicative of all of Chinese history.
  http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/chinese-were-growing-rice-8000-years-ago-403780.html
• pmoney25

  

  The age of the Earth/Universe is really irrelevant in this discussion. Young/Old Earth, Evolution, Big Bang Theory, none of those whether they are 100% accurate or not rule out the existence of A GOD. It may make it more difficult for the God of Abraham to exist but does not rule out the possibility of an Intelligent Creator.
  
  If there is a GOD, it does not have to be the Judeo-Christian GOD or the God of Islam. It could be that we have it all wrong and the GOD that does exist may have just started the whole thing then let it go to play out however it will and He does not really care either way the whole things plays out.
  
  So the whole Age of Earth debate is really a debate about the Christian God and whether or not the Bible is right or wrong on its time line. But like I stated above even if the Bible is wrong, Atheists do not win the debate.
  
  I get why non believers get angry when people try to push religion down their throat but it is almost comical how hypocritical most atheists can be when they start shoving their beliefs/ideas down believers throats. That somehow because they do not believe that they live their life more free and without any sort of worry about what happens when they die.
  
  I am a Christian and at the end of the day, I do not try to tell anyone what they should believe. If you don't, I could care less, that is your decision. If it should happen that on my deathbed I find out that this whole idea of God was wrong, I will not feel any regret or shame in how I lived my life.
• CenterBHSFan

  

  pmoney25 wrote: I get why non believers get angry when people try to push religion down their throat but it is almost comical how hypocritical most atheists can be when they start shoving their beliefs/ideas down believers throats.

  
  I know, right??!?
• Bigred1995

  

  jmog wrote:

  Bigred1995 wrote: jmog, I'm going away on a long weekend, so I may not get back to you until Tuesday! Have a good weekend!

  Thanks man, have a good one.
  
  To answer your above question, I introduced "crowding" effects like with a parameter that would limit the population total to say 15 billion people. This parameter is easily adjustable to accomodate any "max population" of humans estimate that someone believes the Earth can handle.
  
  The Predator/Prey was basically microbes (viruses/bacteria) as the predator as they typically are the bigger killers of humans than any other living organism. I used death rates from bacteria/viral sicknesses each year to develop the system of ODEs needed for a predator/prey model.
  
  In the end the "graph" looked more like the "S" curve of a logarithmic growth model (the crowding model) with sinusoidal humps throughout it that accounded for the predator/prey relationship.
  
  I'm not saying it accurately predicts the population of humans throughout history, I'm just saying its much more accurate than any exponential growth model.
  
  Even your example of a bacteria growth model and 2 years is easily fixed to what would really happen in the real world once you put these types of parameters into the growth model.
  
  If you want actual numbers of the parameters, I'll have to get back to you as its on my home PC, not on my work one .

  I'm back, but have another long weekend coming up starting on Thursday; I can't wait!
  
  jmog, I'd very much like the actual numbers you used as well as the actual model you used. It's starting to sound like you used a combination of several models.
  
  From what you've stated so far it seems your numbers are far to subjective to be taken seriously; that, with a couple fundamental flaws will give you any answer you want! The subjectiveness I'm talking about start with your population grow of .5%, but you can easily go to the UN website and get a more reliable estimation of population growth from year 0 to present and an estimate through 2025. I'd also guess that a lot of your predator/prey numbers are also highly subjective.
  And as far as the fundamental errors I'm talking about, they aren't huge, but would still effect your numbers non-the-less, and that would by your use of "5000 years to go from 2 people to 7 billion." When in actuality you should have gone from 8 people to 7 billion in something like 4300 years, those numbers represent the starting point after the "great flood"!
  
  I understand you have those calculations on your home computer so I won't expect to get them right away. I just want to use the same method you used, but use more accurate data to see what results I come up with.
• BCSbunk

  CenterBHSFan wrote:

  pmoney25 wrote: I get why non believers get angry when people try to push religion down their throat but it is almost comical how hypocritical most atheists can be when they start shoving their beliefs/ideas down believers throats.

  
  I know, right??!?

  For Pmoney25.
  
  Please elaborate on the beliefs/ideas that atheists shove down your throat.
  
  I am calling bullshit on this. Unless of course you mean we are shoving that the Demon theory of disease is utter nonsense. That the earth is not flat, That Geocentricism is false yes we are shoving those beliefs down your throat.
  
  Those are not beliefs those are facts of science now perhaps I am barking up the wrong tree. So please do tell what beliefs atheists are shoving down your throat.
  
  I also did not realize there is an organization of atheists out there as though they are a collective.
  
  Any non-theist holds to a position of atheism.
  
  A deist holds to an atheistic position. Atheism means literally without theism so if you do not believe in a god that interacts with man and its creation then you hold to an atheistic position.
  
  All one must do is ask themselves am I a Theist. If you answer no then you are WITHOUT THEISM = ATHEIST.
• pmoney25

  

  I understand the definition of atheist. I believe in science. I do not believe the earth is flat or 6000 years old. I believe the big bang could have happened.
  
  My issue with a lot of atheist is the elitist attitude you display. Mocking and trying to make any believer seem inferior to you. That because they have faith they are
  somehow not as intelligent or enlightened as you.
  
  I am not saying I am right or you are wrong. Every person has the right to believe whatever they wish. I used to be an atheist who did the things mentioned above.I just don't appreciate being spoken to like I am crazy.
  
  I believe God created everything and I believe in Jesus. If I am denied my entrance in heaven because I don't believe someone lives inside a whale or that the earth is 6000 years old, then I will be a tad disappointed to say the least.
• jmog

  pmoney25 wrote: I understand the definition of atheist. I believe in science. I do not believe the earth is flat or 6000 years old. I believe the big bang could have happened.
  
  My issue with a lot of atheist is the elitist attitude you display. Mocking and trying to make any believer seem inferior to you. That because they have faith they are
  somehow not as intelligent or enlightened as you.
  
  I am not saying I am right or you are wrong. Every person has the right to believe whatever they wish. I used to be an atheist who did the things mentioned above.I just don't appreciate being spoken to like I am crazy.
  
  I believe God created everything and I believe in Jesus. If I am denied my entrance in heaven because I don't believe someone lives inside a whale or that the earth is 6000 years old, then I will be a tad disappointed to say the least.

  1. You have BCSBunk pegged exactly, very "elitist" and acts like he knows everything and puts down anyone who happens to believe in a God.
  
  2. If you read the Bible, you know that entrance into heaven has nothing to do with believing the Earth is 6000 years old or that Jonah survived in a whale, it has everything to do with your faith in Jesus Christ as your Saviour. That, and only that . All of these other things are just "fun" to ponder and figure out.
• Bigred1995

  

  pmoney25 wrote: I understand the definition of atheist. I believe in science. I do not believe the earth is flat or 6000 years old. I believe the big bang could have happened.
  
  My issue with a lot of atheist is the elitist attitude you display. Mocking and trying to make any believer seem inferior to you. That because they have faith they are
  somehow not as intelligent or enlightened as you.
  
  I am not saying I am right or you are wrong. Every person has the right to believe whatever they wish. I used to be an atheist who did the things mentioned above.I just don't appreciate being spoken to like I am crazy.
  
  I believe God created everything and I believe in Jesus. If I am denied my entrance in heaven because I don't believe someone lives inside a whale or that the earth is 6000 years old, then I will be a tad disappointed to say the least.

  The "elitist attitude" isn't with atheist alone. You may have experienced it solely from atheist, but there are a lot of theist out there that do the same thing!

  jmog wrote:
  
  1. You have BCSBunk pegged exactly, very "elitist" and acts like he knows everything and puts down anyone who happens to believe in a God.
  
  2. If you read the Bible, you know that entrance into heaven has nothing to do with believing the Earth is 6000 years old or that Jonah survived in a whale, it has everything to do with your faith in Jesus Christ as your Saviour. That, and only that . All of these other things are just "fun" to ponder and figure out.

  jmog,
  I'd challenge that isn't accurate at all.

  James 2:24-26
  24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
  
  25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
  
  26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

• pmoney25

  

  Bigred- I agree 100%. Theist can be elitist also and that annoyance probably more honestly.
  
  You do need both good deeds and faith but I don't believe you have to believe all the stories in the Bible.
• FairwoodKing

  I am an atheist yet I have never tried to convert anyone to my way of thinking. I believe in reason and science and religionists believe in mythology and ancient superstition. Yet I am supposed to respect their beliefs but they are not supposed to respect mine. What I'm saying is the truth. This is really what it is like for people like me.
  
  My job is to fight this bullshit. If that makes me elitist, then so be it.
• pmoney25

  

  I personally could care less if you believe or that it is your job to fight this bullshit as you so eloquently put it.Also just because you believe in God does not mean you can't believe in science. There are plenty of notable scientists who believe in God. Frances collins, head of the human genome project is one example.
  
  I believe life has a purpose and you believe we are just an accident. Good for you.
• HitsRus

  

  FairwoodKing wrote: I am an atheist yet I have never tried to convert anyone to my way of thinking. I believe in reason and science and religionists believe in mythology and ancient superstition. Yet I am supposed to respect their beliefs but they are not supposed to respect mine. What I'm saying is the truth. This is really what it is like for people like me.
  
  My job is to fight this bullshit. If that makes me elitist, then so be it.

  I believe in reason and science AND God, so let's not make such broad generalizations that "religionists believe in mythology", otherwise I'll play the same game and skewer you for believing that you and your universe just magically appeared out of nothing.
  I can understand that by your orientation you are put out and irritated by those 'religionists' that try to sell their brand to you, but confine your disdain for those 'religionists' and not others that have through either experience or reason...think differently than you. Keep in mind that atheists can be just as annoying as religious zealots.
• jmog

  FairwoodKing wrote: I am an atheist yet I have never tried to convert anyone to my way of thinking. I believe in reason and science and religionists believe in mythology and ancient superstition. Yet I am supposed to respect their beliefs but they are not supposed to respect mine. What I'm saying is the truth. This is really what it is like for people like me.
  
  My job is to fight this bullshit. If that makes me elitist, then so be it.

  You can honestly type here that you don't force your beliefs on anyone after the stuff you typed on the homosexuality vs religion thread?
  
  Come on, you can't be serious.
  
  You ruin your own argument as soon as you said "religionists believe in mythology and superstition".
  
  That is obviously derogatory so no, you aren't "open minded" with respect to religious beliefs at all.
  
  Also, as a scientist I believe in science and reason and I have yet to find anything that makes science and reason mutually exclusive with a faith in a supreme being.
• jmog

  Bigred1995 wrote:

  pmoney25 wrote: I understand the definition of atheist. I believe in science. I do not believe the earth is flat or 6000 years old. I believe the big bang could have happened.
  
  My issue with a lot of atheist is the elitist attitude you display. Mocking and trying to make any believer seem inferior to you. That because they have faith they are
  somehow not as intelligent or enlightened as you.
  
  I am not saying I am right or you are wrong. Every person has the right to believe whatever they wish. I used to be an atheist who did the things mentioned above.I just don't appreciate being spoken to like I am crazy.
  
  I believe God created everything and I believe in Jesus. If I am denied my entrance in heaven because I don't believe someone lives inside a whale or that the earth is 6000 years old, then I will be a tad disappointed to say the least.

  The "elitist attitude" isn't with atheist alone. You may have experienced it solely from atheist, but there are a lot of theist out there that do the same thing!

  jmog wrote:
  
  1. You have BCSBunk pegged exactly, very "elitist" and acts like he knows everything and puts down anyone who happens to believe in a God.
  
  2. If you read the Bible, you know that entrance into heaven has nothing to do with believing the Earth is 6000 years old or that Jonah survived in a whale, it has everything to do with your faith in Jesus Christ as your Saviour. That, and only that . All of these other things are just "fun" to ponder and figure out.

  jmog,
  I'd challenge that isn't accurate at all.

  James 2:24-26
  24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
  
  25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
  
  26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

  Most scholars believe the James passage is similar to what Jesus said in Matthew "Ye shall know them by their fruits" meaning works will identify or justify a believer in human eyes, but doesn't save you.
  
  After all, Titus 3:5,6 says...

  5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
  
  6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

  
  Also in Ephesians 2:8,9 Paul said...

  8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
  
  9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

  I think the Bible is quite clear, works don't save you, they are the evidence of your faith.
  
  If you have no "evidence" or works, then your faith wasn't sincere in the first place.
• Bigred1995

  

  jmog wrote:
  The "elitist attitude" isn't with atheist alone. You may have experienced it solely from atheist, but there are a lot of theist out there that do the same thing!
  

  James 2:24-26
  24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
  
  25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
  
  26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

  
  Most scholars believe the James passage is similar to what Jesus said in Matthew "Ye shall know them by their fruits" meaning works will identify or justify a believer in human eyes, but doesn't save you.
  
  After all, Titus 3:5,6 says...

  5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
  
  6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

  
  Also in Ephesians 2:8,9 Paul said...

  8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
  
  9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

  I think the Bible is quite clear, works don't save you, they are the evidence of your faith.
  
  If you have no "evidence" or works, then your faith wasn't sincere in the first place.

  I was merely pointing out that a great number of the Christian population believe that faith alone isn't enough. I know what you're saying and that's if you have faith then the works will come, but there are a great number of people that also believe that works don't matter at all, that as long as you have faith then, "you're good". You won't be able to quote any verse in the Bible thats states, "faith alone" is enough. Like I already said, I know you'll say that with faith, the works will be there, but it is widely taught that it takes both, and that's what I was pointing out.
• BCSbunk

  pmoney25 wrote: I understand the definition of atheist. I believe in science. I do not believe the earth is flat or 6000 years old. I believe the big bang could have happened.
  
  My issue with a lot of atheist is the elitist attitude you display. Mocking and trying to make any believer seem inferior to you. That because they have faith they are
  somehow not as intelligent or enlightened as you.
  
  I am not saying I am right or you are wrong. Every person has the right to believe whatever they wish. I used to be an atheist who did the things mentioned above.I just don't appreciate being spoken to like I am crazy.
  
  I believe God created everything and I believe in Jesus. If I am denied my entrance in heaven because I don't believe someone lives inside a whale or that the earth is 6000 years old, then I will be a tad disappointed to say the least.

  So then those that are not delusional are elitists when they try to point out that someone is indeed delusional.
  
  Here is something that shows the delusion.
  
  
• BCSbunk

  HitsRus wrote:

  FairwoodKing wrote: I am an atheist yet I have never tried to convert anyone to my way of thinking. I believe in reason and science and religionists believe in mythology and ancient superstition. Yet I am supposed to respect their beliefs but they are not supposed to respect mine. What I'm saying is the truth. This is really what it is like for people like me.
  
  My job is to fight this bullshit. If that makes me elitist, then so be it.

  I believe in reason and science AND God, so let's not make such broad generalizations that "religionists believe in mythology", otherwise I'll play the same game and skewer you for believing that you and your universe just magically appeared out of nothing.
  I can understand that by your orientation you are put out and irritated by those 'religionists' that try to sell their brand to you, but confine your disdain for those 'religionists' and not others that have through either experience or reason...think differently than you. Keep in mind that atheists can be just as annoying as religious zealots.

  You first sentence is contradictory. What is a god? A reasonable person does not use non-cognitive terms as though they exist or are meaningful.
  
  The next is a line of bullshit. I do not believe the Universe came from nothing that is a strawman.
  
  You see not all religious people are annoying like the Amish or the Quakers or the ones who do not try to get idiotic things like ID in public schools. That is when we atheists have to stand up and say your delusion is fine when you keep it to yourselves.
• pmoney25

  

  Are you Richard Dawkins? His followers worship him like he is a God.
  
  As for that video, I luckily don't receive my thoughts or opinions from a guy on youtube probably living in his parents basement. I don't have time now at work bit I will tell you why later that the video is a load of bs
• HitsRus

  

  As for that video....if you actually think that has any relevance to what I believe, or what belief in God is about...you are the one who is delusional. But we knew that anyway.
  
  Speaking of delusional....can you show me any people on this thread that think ID should be taught in science in public school?
  Are you saying that people who believe in God are not reasonable?
• Cleveland Buck

  

  BCSbunk wrote: The next is a line of bullshit. I do not believe the Universe came from nothing that is a strawman.

  Where do you think the universe came from?
• majorspark

  

  pmoney25 wrote: Are you Richard Dawkins? His followers worship him like he is a God.
  
  As for that video, I luckily don't receive my thoughts or opinions from a guy on youtube probably living in his parents basement. I don't have time now at work bit I will tell you why later that the video is a load of bs

  I think he was the guy in the video.
• ManO'War

  

  That video is awesome because it pretty much shoots down the whole religious bull shit in under 10 minutes!
• Bigred1995

  

  HitsRus wrote: I believe in reason and science AND God, so let's not make such broad generalizations that "religionists believe in mythology", otherwise I'll play the same game and skewer you for believing that you and your universe just magically appeared out of nothing.
  I can understand that by your orientation you are put out and irritated by those 'religionists' that try to sell their brand to you, but confine your disdain for those 'religionists' and not others that have through either experience or reason...think differently than you. Keep in mind that atheists can be just as annoying as religious zealots.

  Cleveland Buck wrote: Where do you think the universe came from?

  I know I've mentioned this at least once before, but it obviously needs repeated. The ONLY people that truly believe that the universe came from are the religious. I'm not saying all of them, but I'm willing to bet most of them! They believe their god spoke the world in to existence the same way Harry Potter casts spells!
  Hocus Pocus!

  1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
  2 Now the earth was [a] formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
  
  3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.
  
  6 And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water." 7 So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the expanse "sky." And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.
  
  9 And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground "land," and the gathered waters he called "seas." And God saw that it was good.
  
  11 Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.
  
  14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. Where was the light coming from before this? More hocus pocus! 17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.
  
  20 And God said, "Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky." 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth." 23 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.
  
  24 And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
  
  26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."
  
  27 So God created man in his own image,
  in the image of God he created him;
  male and female(Lillith?) he created them.
  
  28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."
  
  29 Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. WTF, in one verse we get all the fruit and then later there's one tree we can't touch? 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food." And it was so.
  
  31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.
  
  Source:http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+1&version=NIV
  Text in this font added by bigred1995
  Bold also added by bigred1995
  

  So please stop trying to place the "belief the Universe came from nothing" on people that believe in the Big Bang, because the only people that truly believe that everything came from nothing are you!