Don't Ask, Don't Tell

• Captain Cavalier

  

  As stated above, all military should be held accountable to the same standard. My worry would be is what would happen when one falls short of that standard and happens to be gay. If disciplined, will some yell foul and say they did it because they're gay? Or how about a "code red" type thing being given out. Will be people say it was done solely because they were gay? Yes it could happen that way but there's really no way to know for sure. And I'm not saying this is a reason to keep them from serving. I just don't want to see it "used" as leverage or for some kind of "special" treatment to avoid a scandal.
• dwccrew

  

  LJ wrote: Honestly, the policy should be "Don't ask, don't tell, don't care"
  
  Your sexual preference makes no difference to how you can fight.

  Straight guy
  
  
  Gay guy
  
  
  Who would you rather be fighting on your side?
  

  Glory Days wrote:

  derek bomar wrote:

  LJ wrote:

  derek bomar wrote:

  LJ wrote:

  derek bomar wrote:

  2quik4u wrote:

  derek bomar wrote: Boggles my mind why you wouldn't let them serve

  they do serve

  not if they are truthful

  That just don't make any sense. How can they be untruthful if you aren't allowed to ask?

  They're going into an arrangement where they know ahead of time if they admit something truthful about themselves if ever asked, or tell someone off the cuff something truthful about themselves, they won't be allowed to serve. I just don't see the fact that just because somebody doesn't ask you something, it's not lying that you didn't tell them.
  
  It's a lie of omission in my book. And I would venture to guess most if not all are asked in some form by their buddies or higher ups in a social setting, i.e. talking about all the girls back home or what not... and they'd be forced to lie then

  While I agree that it should be "don't ask, don't tell, don't care" I just don't agree with that logic at all. Also, nobody can ask.

  I don't think you get what I'm saying...
  
  say you're gay and me and I'm your buddy in the service and we're out for beers one night and we start shooting the shit.
  
  "say LJ, look at the broad over there...big ole titties huh?..."
  
  you get the general direction where that convo would head. Just because you can't "ask" if someone's gay doesn't mean you can't talk to each other like a guy, and in some cases a gay dude would either be forced to lie, say nothing, or be honest. One instance he's outright lying, one he's lying by omission, and the third he's gettin booted out of the service...

  what about straight guys who dont like big ole titties but would lie to feel like part of the group?

  derek bomar wrote:

  Glory Days wrote:

  derek bomar wrote:

  Glory Days wrote:

  derek bomar wrote:

  LJ wrote:

  derek bomar wrote:

  LJ wrote:

  derek bomar wrote:

  2quik4u wrote: [quote=derek bomar]
  Boggles my mind why you wouldn't let them serve

  they do serve

  not if they are truthful

  That just don't make any sense. How can they be untruthful if you aren't allowed to ask?

  They're going into an arrangement where they know ahead of time if they admit something truthful about themselves if ever asked, or tell someone off the cuff something truthful about themselves, they won't be allowed to serve. I just don't see the fact that just because somebody doesn't ask you something, it's not lying that you didn't tell them.
  
  It's a lie of omission in my book. And I would venture to guess most if not all are asked in some form by their buddies or higher ups in a social setting, i.e. talking about all the girls back home or what not... and they'd be forced to lie then

  While I agree that it should be "don't ask, don't tell, don't care" I just don't agree with that logic at all. Also, nobody can ask.

  I don't think you get what I'm saying...
  
  say you're gay and me and I'm your buddy in the service and we're out for beers one night and we start shooting the shit.
  
  "say LJ, look at the broad over there...big ole titties huh?..."
  
  you get the general direction where that convo would head. Just because you can't "ask" if someone's gay doesn't mean you can't talk to each other like a guy, and in some cases a gay dude would either be forced to lie, say nothing, or be honest. One instance he's outright lying, one he's lying by omission, and the third he's gettin booted out of the service...

  what about straight guys who dont like big ole titties but would lie to feel like part of the group?

  he wouldn't have to lie, he could say I like small titties, or medium titties, etc...the gay guy has to lie in order to stay.

  and the gay guy could say "no, i dont like big titties". where is the lie there?

  lol...he is lying. That's the point.
  [/quote]
  
  How is he lying if he says he doesn't like big titties? He really doesn't if he's gay, so in a sense, he's telling the truth. They aren't lying, they just have to hide who they are.
  
  In my mind, they should be allowed to serve and be able to live their lifestyle openly.
• Glory Days

  

  dwccrew wrote:
  How is he lying if he says he doesn't like big titties? He really doesn't if he's gay, so in a sense, he's telling the truth. They aren't lying, they just have to hide who they are.
  
  In my mind, they should be allowed to serve and be able to live their lifestyle openly.

  thats what i wondered. unless he has to specify which type of titties he likes, female boobs or man boobs.
• dwccrew

  

  He probably doesn't like man boobs either, that is usually on an overweight dude.
• Glory Days

  

  dwccrew wrote: He probably doesn't like man boobs either, that is usually on an overweight dude.

  hey now, fat gay guys need loving too....not that i know anything about that...
• FairwoodKing

  Let's look at this whole issue from a different point of view. If the policy remains, the military will never again be able to reinstate the draft. During the Vietnam War, a huge number of gay men did not declare their homosexuality when they were drafted. Very few straight men tried to get out of the draft by declaring that they were gay. But in today's world, attitudes are very different. Many straight men wouldn't hesitate to declare themselves gay to get out of the draft. And most young men know someone who is gay, so the gay guys could tell the straight guys what to say and how to act. The draft would become a farce.
• cbus4life

  FairwoodKing wrote: Let's look at this whole issue from a different point of view. If the policy remains, the military will never again be able to reinstate the draft. During the Vietnam War, a huge number of gay men did not declare their homosexuality when they were drafted. Very few straight men tried to get out of the draft by declaring that they were gay. But in today's world, attitudes are very different. Many straight men wouldn't hesitate to declare themselves gay to get out of the draft. And most young men know someone who is gay, so the gay guys could tell the straight guys what to say and how to act. The draft would become a farce.

  Rofl, what to say and how to act?
  
  The gays guy i know act no differently than any straight guy, you can't "prove" that someone is gay because of how they act and talk.
  
  Yes, some might be flamboyant, but so are some heterosexual dudes i know.
  
  They couldn't "prove" that someone was gay based on that, the only way would be watch them having sex, and even then, some guys would probably do it to get out of the draft.
  
  Just another idiotic view of homosexual behavior. All you see on tv is the outrageous behavior.
  
  But, by and large, i've met tons of gay men and women who you would never be able to "tell" were gay, based on idiotic stereotypes.
• Glory Days

  

  cbus4life wrote:

  FairwoodKing wrote: Let's look at this whole issue from a different point of view. If the policy remains, the military will never again be able to reinstate the draft. During the Vietnam War, a huge number of gay men did not declare their homosexuality when they were drafted. Very few straight men tried to get out of the draft by declaring that they were gay. But in today's world, attitudes are very different. Many straight men wouldn't hesitate to declare themselves gay to get out of the draft. And most young men know someone who is gay, so the gay guys could tell the straight guys what to say and how to act. The draft would become a farce.

  Rofl, what to say and how to act?
  
  The gays guy i know act no differently than any straight guy, you can't "prove" that someone is gay because of how they act and talk.
  
  Yes, some might be flamboyant, but so are some heterosexual dudes i know.
  
  They couldn't "prove" that someone was gay based on that, the only way would be watch them having sex, and even then, some guys would probably do it to get out of the draft.
  
  Just another idiotic view of homosexual behavior. All you see on tv is the outrageous behavior.
  
  But, by and large, i've met tons of gay men and women who you would never be able to "tell" were gay, based on idiotic stereotypes.

  you mean, there could be a gay guy living next door and i wouldnt even know it? OH NO!!!
• LJ

  

  I Wear Pants wrote:

  LJ wrote:

  BoatShoes wrote:

  LJ wrote:

  derek bomar wrote:

  2quik4u wrote:

  derek bomar wrote: Boggles my mind why you wouldn't let them serve

  they do serve

  not if they are truthful

  That just don't make any sense. How can they be untruthful if you aren't allowed to ask?

  Well a fellow service member might ask..."how come you aren't married" or "how come you didn't bang that skank that was all up on your nuts"
  
  not really asking if they're gay...but they're in a position wherein that are bound by the UCMJ to violate principles such as honesty and honor that the military has typically endorsed as good.

  
  "because I am not, it's a long story and I would rather not talk about it"

  That still isn't being honest which is deemed a good quality by you know, everyone.

  LOL, that is most certainly being honest.
  
  He isn't married- True
  It's a long story- True
  He doesn't want to talk about it- True.
• cbus4life

  Glory Days wrote:

  cbus4life wrote:

  FairwoodKing wrote: Let's look at this whole issue from a different point of view. If the policy remains, the military will never again be able to reinstate the draft. During the Vietnam War, a huge number of gay men did not declare their homosexuality when they were drafted. Very few straight men tried to get out of the draft by declaring that they were gay. But in today's world, attitudes are very different. Many straight men wouldn't hesitate to declare themselves gay to get out of the draft. And most young men know someone who is gay, so the gay guys could tell the straight guys what to say and how to act. The draft would become a farce.

  Rofl, what to say and how to act?
  
  The gays guy i know act no differently than any straight guy, you can't "prove" that someone is gay because of how they act and talk.
  
  Yes, some might be flamboyant, but so are some heterosexual dudes i know.
  
  They couldn't "prove" that someone was gay based on that, the only way would be watch them having sex, and even then, some guys would probably do it to get out of the draft.
  
  Just another idiotic view of homosexual behavior. All you see on tv is the outrageous behavior.
  
  But, by and large, i've met tons of gay men and women who you would never be able to "tell" were gay, based on idiotic stereotypes.

  you mean, there could be a gay guy living next door and i wouldnt even know it? OH NO!!!

  Yep, be very very careful!
• Ytowngirlinfla

  

  Yeah cause he may try to like get with you cause all gay people want everyone of the same sex...I can't wait till they get rid of this rule. I'll tell you my barracks has about 200 females in it and I'd guess at least half are gay or bi.
• Glory Days

  

  Ytowngirlinfla wrote: Yeah cause he may try to like get with you cause all gay people want everyone of the same sex...I can't wait till they get rid of this rule. I'll tell you my barracks has about 200 females in it and I'd guess at least half are gay or bi.

  haha although i do kind of have a semi-serious question, how will you seperate gay men from straight men? like right now, a male and female couldnt be alone in the same room together without the door being open or whatever. how will that work with 2 gay men? although not like that policy stopped males and females from finding ways hook up. when assigning rooms, will you have to make sure one is straight and one is gay?
  

  I'll tell you my barracks has about 200 females in it and I'd guess at least half are gay or bi.

  well hell, that must mean there are topless pillow fights that turn into an all out lesbian orgy every night!
  
  P.S. if that does happen, take pictures!
• Little Danny

  

  Ytowngirlinfla wrote: Yeah cause he may try to like get with you cause all gay people want everyone of the same sex...I can't wait till they get rid of this rule. I'll tell you my barracks has about 200 females in it and I'd guess at least half are gay or bi.

  The truth is most of the people who have problem with gays in the military only think of it from the perspective of gay men who serve in a combat role. It is a stereotype, but many assume that women in the military are a bit "butch" to begin with. Also, it goes back to societal persepectives that female on female behavior is different than man on man. I am not saying it is right, I am only saying this is how people think.
  
  My opinion on the subject is that guys should be allowed in the military. As others have pointed out, if their sexual orientation/behavior becomes a distraction (meaning they are engaging in sexual activity while on the job or sexually harassing somebody) they should be punished the same as a heterosexual who acts in a similar manner.
• FairwoodKing

  cbus4life wrote:

  FairwoodKing wrote: Let's look at this whole issue from a different point of view. If the policy remains, the military will never again be able to reinstate the draft. During the Vietnam War, a huge number of gay men did not declare their homosexuality when they were drafted. Very few straight men tried to get out of the draft by declaring that they were gay. But in today's world, attitudes are very different. Many straight men wouldn't hesitate to declare themselves gay to get out of the draft. And most young men know someone who is gay, so the gay guys could tell the straight guys what to say and how to act. The draft would become a farce.

  Rofl, what to say and how to act?
  
  The gays guy i know act no differently than any straight guy, you can't "prove" that someone is gay because of how they act and talk.
  
  Yes, some might be flamboyant, but so are some heterosexual dudes i know.
  
  They couldn't "prove" that someone was gay based on that, the only way would be watch them having sex, and even then, some guys would probably do it to get out of the draft.
  
  Just another idiotic view of homosexual behavior. All you see on tv is the outrageous behavior.
  But, by and large, i've met tons of gay men and women who you would never be able to "tell" were gay, based on idiotic stereotypes.

  I've got news for you, brother. I AM gay! During Vietnam, some straight guys tried to pretend to be gay without knowing what they were doing and the psychologists figured them out real fast. Trust me on this (because I grew up during the Vietnam era)-- during times when the military has the draft in effect, they just don't take someone's word that he's gay. I knew one idiot who showed up for a pre-draft medical wearing a dress. He was one of the first to be drafted.
  
  In my own particular case, I was in the closet during my college years. I was also in ROTC my freshman and sophomore years. I got out of military duty because my draft lottery number was 356.
  
  If I had declared myself as gay to get out of the draft, I wouldn't have had a clue as to what to say because I hadn't actually done anything. I doubt if they would have accepted my word.
  
  I have gay friends who did serve in the military. They were terrified that someone would find out about them. I have been told stories about how some of their gay colleagues ended up in military prison because of this.
  
  I brought up the idea about the draft being affected by this policy because probably no one else had thought about it. It is something for the military to consider.
• BuckeyeBlue

  

  Revoking this policy won't change much about the way my day-to-day life goes at work. In fact, it will probably not change a damn thing. When you spend as much time with people as we do (underway time, duty days, etc.) we already know who is gay and who is not. The way I look at it, if not having to be afraid that somebody higher in the chain of command than myself finds out about their sexual orientation will make alleviate stress and allow them to perform their job at a higher level, then revoking this rule is a great thing.
  
  I don't think the talk of room assignments will be an issue either. Like I said, we already know (in a lot of cases) who is and who isn't gay, and we live with them now. Why would it all of a sudden change just because this outdated policy goes away? Now, if two dudes (I'm only using dudes in this example because it would be the situation most likely to happen in my berthing) decided to start sharing a rack underway, I would expect that to be dealt with in the exact same manner as when a guy and girl are found racked up together (happens more than you would probably think). Seeing people go to CO's mast for Sex on the Ship is pretty common underway. People tend to do some dumb shit when they've been at sea for 40 days straight or so.
  
  No officer or high ranking enlisted person would be allowed to use their position as a platform for social change also. We have all signed contracts stating when and why we are allowed to speak with the media. If that person valued their job at all, they would be unable to speak out. If they did, they could lose said job, not for being a homosexual, but for violation of their contract with the military.
• redfalcon

  

  Captain Cavalier wrote: As stated above, all military should be held accountable to the same standard. My worry would be is what would happen when one falls short of that standard and happens to be gay. If disciplined, will some yell foul and say they did it because they're gay? Or how about a "code red" type thing being given out. Will be people say it was done solely because they were gay? Yes it could happen that way but there's really no way to know for sure. And I'm not saying this is a reason to keep them from serving. I just don't want to see it "used" as leverage or for some kind of "special" treatment to avoid a scandal.

  This is the one of the more ridiculous homophobic argument I have ever heard. There are thousands of things this could be applied to. They said this about black soldiers in the 40's, about women in the 70's, and about immigrants at numerous points of time. It hasn't happened, it never will.
• Captain Cavalier

  

  redfalcon wrote:

  Captain Cavalier wrote: As stated above, all military should be held accountable to the same standard. My worry would be is what would happen when one falls short of that standard and happens to be gay. If disciplined, will some yell foul and say they did it because they're gay? Or how about a "code red" type thing being given out. Will be people say it was done solely because they were gay? Yes it could happen that way but there's really no way to know for sure. And I'm not saying this is a reason to keep them from serving. I just don't want to see it "used" as leverage or for some kind of "special" treatment to avoid a scandal.

  This is the one of the more ridiculous homophobic argument I have ever heard. There are thousands of things this could be applied to. They said this about black soldiers in the 40's, about women in the 70's, and about immigrants at numerous points of time. It hasn't happened, it never will.

  Is it? I have personally heard blacks and women say at work that they would use their race/sex to their advantage. I've also heard supervisors say that they were very careful of what they did and said around them. If it can happen there, why couldn't it happen in the military? And why do you consider this a homophobic statement? I feel the same about any minority. Just as no one can guarantee that it would happen, no one can guarantee that it wouldn't.
• dwccrew

  

  Captain Cavalier wrote:

  redfalcon wrote:

  Captain Cavalier wrote: As stated above, all military should be held accountable to the same standard. My worry would be is what would happen when one falls short of that standard and happens to be gay. If disciplined, will some yell foul and say they did it because they're gay? Or how about a "code red" type thing being given out. Will be people say it was done solely because they were gay? Yes it could happen that way but there's really no way to know for sure. And I'm not saying this is a reason to keep them from serving. I just don't want to see it "used" as leverage or for some kind of "special" treatment to avoid a scandal.

  This is the one of the more ridiculous homophobic argument I have ever heard. There are thousands of things this could be applied to. They said this about black soldiers in the 40's, about women in the 70's, and about immigrants at numerous points of time. It hasn't happened, it never will.

  Is it? I have personally heard blacks and women say at work that they would use their race/sex to their advantage. I've also heard supervisors say that they were very careful of what they did and said around them. If it can happen there, why couldn't it happen in the military? And why do you consider this a homophobic statement? I feel the same about any minority. Just as no one can guarantee that it would happen, no one can guarantee that it wouldn't.

  Maybe because those of us who have served have never seen it. I have never seen anyone treated differently because of their sex, race, religion, etc. while I was in the military.
  
  I also never saw anyone use anything like that to their advantage. Just because some of the few people you have worked with have said they would use their status' to get an advantage. I'm willing to bet I have encountered many more people in the military than you have in the work world.
• brutus161

  

  I have served with sveral gay men (some openly), and I couldn't care less. As long as you do your job, I don't care what you do when you leave work.
• FairwoodKing

  One of the biggest problems the government has created for itself by its homophobic policies is that a great many Arabic interpreters have been booted out because of their sexuality. I have no idea why so many of them are gay, but they are and we need them.
• BoatShoes

  When I served we knew who was gay and who wasn't...it wasn't a big deal. If two gay shipmates hooked up it was in private and done secretly and nobody knew. When a female and a male shipmate hooked up on the other hand, that was a different story....
  
  IMO, male female sexual relations, harrassment, flirtation, rape...as much as is done to prevent it...causes much more friction than anything related to homosexuality or gay shipmates. That was just my experience. Don't take it for gospel.
• Glory Days

  

  FairwoodKing wrote: One of the biggest problems the government has created for itself by its homophobic policies is that a great many Arabic interpreters have been booted out because of their sexuality. I have no idea why so many of them are gay, but they are and we need them.

  in the arabic culture, men will have sex with men for pleasure and sex with women for reproduction. there was quite a few times in Iraq we kicked the door in on a raid and found two dudes going at it.
• IggyPride00

  

  Dick Cheney came out this morning in favor of repealing DADT. That should settle the debate once and for all, because it provides cover for any teabagger who may have been on the fence but afraid of the political fallout and all liberals wanted it anyway.
• Ytowngirlinfla

  

  I hope they repeal it soon.