The US economy was close to total collapse.

• believer

  

  bman618 wrote: I see us defaulting on our debt because our politicians lack backbone and too many of our citizens won't give up the left-right bullcrap and not hold these major parties to account.

  bman,
  
  If the U.S. government decides to default or file "national bankruptcy" what would be the consequences of that action? For example, individuals and businesses files bankruptcy all the time to - in a sense - start with " a clean slate."
  
  I wouldn't suggest we file a national Chapter 7 but a Chapter 13 idea might be worth looking at....you know, we agree to pay off a lowered amount of the national debt over the next 10 years with an agreement to assume no further national debt in that time frame.
  
  I realize it wouldn't be that simple on a national level but it would still be interesting to hear your thoughts on this.
• cbus4life

  believer wrote:

  Bigdogg wrote:You do realize that a no sane politician could even purpose even half of those cuts.

  Define "sane politician." A courageous, forward-thinking leader would find a way to do what's necessary.
  
  With that said, tell me why we can't - at the very least - consolidate, downsize and eliminate the waste.
  
  Examples: Why do we need both a Bureau of Indian Affairs and an Administration for Native Americans? Why do we need an Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease, a Center for Nutrition Policy and Promotion, an Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality, a Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, a Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services, and a Department of Health and Human Services?
  
  There are many more examples.
  
  It's absurd, unnecessary and clearly demonstrates a boated, inefficient Big Government that needs some consolidation and downsizing.

  The Administration for Native Americans (ANA) is a department of the United States Department of Health and Human Services established in 1974 through the Native American Programs Act (NAPA).
  
  The mission of ANA is to promote economic and social self-sufficiency for American Indians, Alaska Natives, Native Hawaiians, and other Native Pacific Islanders. ANA provides community-based project funding to improve the lives of native children and families thereby reducing long-term dependency on public assistance. Funding for community-based projects is provided through three competitive discretionary grant programs to eligible tribes and non-profit Native American organizations.
  
  The Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA) is an agency of the federal government of the United States within the US Department of the Interior charged with the administration and management of 55.7 million acres (87,000 sq. miles or 225,000 km²) of land held in trust by the United States for Native Americans in the United States, Native American Tribes and Alaska Natives. The Bureau of Indian Affairs is one of two Bureaus under the jurisdiction of the Assistant Secretary - Indian Affairs: the Bureau of Indian Affairs and The Bureau of Indian Education, which provides education services to approximately 48,000 Native Americans.
  
  These are two that i totally disagree should be cut.
  
  Despite what the facade of casino revenues might convey, many reservations in the United States are essentially the equivalent of 3rd world countries in terms of poverty and the like.
  
  Should by no means be cut at this time.
  
  The two agencies serve entirely different functions, and consolidating and the like wouldn't save money, and it would only hurt further those who need help.
  
  Again, i completely, completely disagree. The situation of Native Americans in North America is still dire, and still require these services.
  
  And, considering it is completely and utterly the United States' fault that they are in this situation, we should continue funding these programs. They still haven't recovered from the horrendous policies of the United States government that were still in place well into the 20th century.
  
  I understand that "we," as in ourselves, had nothing to do with it, but the fact remains that we need to take responsibility, on some level, for the cultural genocide that took place as a result of our government's actions, and the policies that forced them into poverty.
  
  I understand that certain things could be cut, but not those two. Not at all.
  
  Though, the Bureau of Indian affairs will hopefully fade away as tribes regain more sovereignty and the like over the upcoming years, as they should. So, that is a glimmer of hope, i guess.
• majorspark

  

  cbus4life wrote: These are two that i totally disagree should be cut.
  
  Despite what the facade of casino revenus might convey, many reservations in the United States are 3rd world countries in our midst.
  
  Should by no means be cut at this time.
  
  The two agencies serve entirely different functions, and consolidating and the like wouldn't save money, and it would only hurt further those who need help.

  1st bold. Precisely why the federal government should get out of the way. The Native Americans have been held back by the feds for too long. The federal government is to blame for their financial status.
  
  2nd bold. Like they have been screwed by the feds enough already. They have done a hell of a job so far. Why stop now?
• cbus4life

  Can't disagree with that.
  
  But, they can't just "go away" immediately. Certain steps need to be taken, by the federal government, before that can happen. Shitty situation, but isn't as easy as cut/consolidate, due to the failures of the federal government.
  
  And, btw, while i wouldn't care about the Bureau of Indian Affairs going away, i've seen the good that the Administration for Native Americans has done first-hand, and would like to see a continual partnership between the tribes and government, in that regard.
  
  Until A LOT more steps are taken, most of which the federal government will not take, it isn't feasible to get rid of the Bureau of Indian Affairs.
  
  I would like to see it happen. But, the reality is that the feds won't do it, and because of that sad reality, i don't think it will be cut.
• CenterBHSFan

  

  cbus4life wrote: Can't disagree with that.
  
  But, they can't just "go away" immediately. Certain steps need to be taken, by the federal government, before that can happen. Shitty situation, but isn't as easy as cut/consolidate, due to the failures of the federal government.
  
  And, btw, while i wouldn't care about the Bureau of Indian Affairs going away, i've seen the good that the Administration for Native Americans has done first-hand, and would like to see a continual partnership between the tribes and government, in that regard.
  
  Until A LOT more steps are taken, most of which the federal government will not take, it isn't feasible to get rid of the Bureau of Indian Affairs.
  
  I would like to see it happen. But, the reality is that the feds won't do it, and because of that sad reality, i don't think it will be cut.

  
  Cbus,
  
  Isn't that sort of arguing against your argument? If the fed.gov. will not take the necessary steps, wouldn't it be just as well to just get rid of it?
  Especially since it WILL NOT do the job it is commissioned for?
  
  I don't know... maybe it's just me(?)
• cbus4life

  No, i see what you're saying.
  
  
  I just don't think it is feasible to just drop it right now.
  
  I think the feds need to do some things to correct mistakes before dropping it. Or, give the tribes certain guarantees. I think an agency still needs to be in place to help with the transition.
  
  Like i said originally, i think it will fade away over time, but i don't think it is feasible right now, as the two need to work together to achieve sovereignty for those tribes.
  
  I guess i'm not making much sense haha, but all i'm saying is that a partnership needs to exist during the transition period. Can't just drop them entirely right now.
  
  And, i don't think the Administration for Native Americans should go away, either, until completely sovereignty is achieved, which has not happened. Still has a very useful role to play.
  
  Rest assured, the Bureau of Indian Affairs will "go away" eventually, but it can't right now, needs to work with the tribes to move towards sovereignty.
• ptown_trojans_1

  

  IggyPride00 wrote:

  believer wrote:

  Bigdogg wrote:"Big Government" is such a cliche and a big cop-out. Since I am assuming you are referring to the Federal government and not your State, local or City government, which specific Federal departments do you propose to eliminate?

  Let me count the Big Government ways:
  [size=x-small]
  Administration for Children and Families (ACF)
  Administration for Native Americans
  Administration on Aging (AoA)
  Administration on Developmental Disabilities
  Advisory Council on Historic Preservation
  African Development Foundation
  Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality (AHRQ)
  Agency for International Development
  Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry
  Agricultural Marketing Service
  Agricultural Research Service
  AMTRAK (National Railroad Passenger Corporation)
  Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service
  Appalachian Regional Commission
  Architect of the Capitol
  Architectural and Transportation Barriers Compliance Board (Access Board)\
  Arctic Research Commission
  Arthritis and Musculoskeletal Interagency Coordinating Committee
  Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA)
  Bureau of Reclamation
  Bureau of the Census
  Center for Nutrition Policy and Promotion
  Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC)
  Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services
  Commission of Fine Arts
  Commission on Civil Rights
  Commission on International Religious Freedom
  Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe (Helsinki Commission)
  Committee for Purchase from People Who Are Blind or Severely Disabled Committee for the Implementation of Textile Agreements
  Department of Education (ED)
  Department of Energy (DOE)
  Department of Health and Human Services (HHS)
  Department of Labor (DOL)
  Disability Employment Policy Office
  Environmental Protection Agency (EPA)
  Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC)
  [/size]
  
  ....I can go on but I think you get my point.

  There is no money really in those. You need to attack the big 3, that's where the money is at. It also doesn't help that soon we will be paying roughly $500 billion a year in interest that can't be cut because of 30 years of profligate spending and failure to make tough choices.

  You do realize half of our nuclear weapons infrastructure is located in the Department of Energy, 9.6 billion? Also the DOE houses the Nuclear Regulatory Agency.
  
  HHS also coordinates vaccines and other national health issues. I see no reason it needs to go. The EPA helps regulate carbon and pollution, so we do not have a repeat of the Cuyahoga river burning and smog like in China.
  
  I know you are a die hard conservative, but even Reagan saw the value of these agencies.
• bigmanbt

  "The EPA helps regulate carbon and pollution,"
  
  You say that like carbon is some kind of chemical we need to regulate to protect the environment. Funny, I thought plants used CO2 to create Oxygen.
  
  I would get rid of many federal government agencies as well, but I do realize that SOME have merit, they just need major restructuring.
• ptown_trojans_1

  

  bigmanbt wrote: "The EPA helps regulate carbon and pollution,"
  
  You say that like carbon is some kind of chemical we need to regulate to protect the environment. Funny, I thought plants used CO2 to create Oxygen.
  
  I would get rid of many federal government agencies as well, but I do realize that SOME have merit, they just need major restructuring.

  I'm not debating the science of it. Just saying that before the EPA and other laws, the Cuyahoga river burned how many times? Also, look at China today with no regulations. Restructuring it maybe, but abolishing it, no.
• fish82

  

  "Restructuring" = "Reform" = 100% utter bullshit.
• bman618

  Believer, A national default or national bankruptcy would probably the more honorable approach to go so we could reneigotate our deficit down has to be an option. If we just turn the printers on for overdrive and print our way out of it, we do far more damage to ourselves by ruining the currency and also damaging other countries who then would hold worthless dollars and have to cut off imports to us, meaning layoffs to their work forces.
• bman618

  We needed to clean up the environment and some regulations are needed. But saying CO2 is a pollutant is silly and is not about the environment but government control. Some environmentalists, such as a co-founder of Greenpeace, are saying the movement has been hijacked by folks who want to use it for more power and greed.
• IggyPride00

  

  bman618 wrote: Believer, A national default or national bankruptcy would probably the more honorable approach to go so we could reneigotate our deficit down has to be an option. If we just turn the printers on for overdrive and print our way out of it, we do far more damage to ourselves by ruining the currency and also damaging other countries who then would hold worthless dollars and have to cut off imports to us, meaning layoffs to their work forces.

  If we default on that debt we will look like a 3rd world nation within 5 years.
  
  You can't base an economy on financial services and then default on your debt.
  
  We also are completely unprepared for the ramifications that would happen immediately as we would lose reserve currency status, which has been the only thing that kept us from falling off a cliff up until now. The world is already contemplating moving away from it, default would be the death blow. Once its gone, we will most likely experience cripplingly high inflation because we won't be insulated from it when goods are priced in something other than dollars the way they are now.
  
  Default is not an option, and our government will raise taxes to 75% if they have to to avoid it as it is much better than the alternative that we are not now nor going to be prepared to deal with.
• Cleveland Buck

  

  The problem is, if they raise taxes to 75% or even 95%, they are still only going to collect 20% or so of the GDP in revenues. Raising taxes like that serve no purpose other than to strangle what is left of the economy. They can not count on bringing in more revenue.
• bman618

  Iggy, we are going to lose our reserve status no matter what. Other nations are already working on a new reserve currency or base it on a basket of currencies. We can't jack up taxes that high because you will destroy a lot of the production capability of this country we have left. Either we do national bankruptcy or reneigotation of debt or we print our way out of the debt, which will destroy the dollar and make America an untrusted state that foreigners won't want to loan credit to or ship valuable commodities like oil to.
• majorspark

  

  cbus4life wrote: But, they can't just "go away" immediately. Certain steps need to be taken, by the federal government, before that can happen. Shitty situation, but isn't as easy as cut/consolidate, due to the failures of the federal government.

  I understand what you are saying here. This group has been dependent for so long. Cutting them off suddenly may not be a good thing for them or it could shock them back into the indepence they once enjoyed. I don't know about you but they used to do pretty well taking care of themselves before the feds forced their way in. Granted we have not given them the most fertile land. The problem is they have not shaken off the chains of Federal power.
  
  Look at Las Vegas, hardly fertile ground, yet capitalism has prospered it. Its high time for the feds to leave them the freedom to do as they wish. It is arrogant for the federal govenment to think they cannot prosper without them. After all they did quite well before the feds forced their way in. Always trust local government over the federal government. Trust me cbus, history is on their side.
  

  cbus4life wrote: And, btw, while i wouldn't care about the Bureau of Indian Affairs going away, i've seen the good that the Administration for Native Americans has done first-hand, and would like to see a continual partnership between the tribes and government, in that regard.

  What good? The abject poverty the majority of native Americans enjoy? Sounds a lot like the inner cities of our nation. In the name of promoting this "good" many continue to grant the Federal Government with the power to achieve this "good", yet they never quite seem to achieve it. They always need just a little more power and a little more money. In the end all that is gained is more power for the Federal Government. So much more power that evan you can't imagine these groups living without it.
  

  cbus4life wrote: Until A LOT more steps are taken, most of which the federal government will not take, it isn't feasible to get rid of the Bureau of Indian Affairs.
  
  I would like to see it happen. But, the reality is that the feds won't do it, and because of that sad reality, i don't think it will be cut.

  You are correct. The Federal Government will not relinquish the power they have achieved without force. How do we oppose this force? Well we start with the force of the people voting to return power to the states and the people. Vote candidates into power that respect the powers given to the states and the people (local government) and those given to the Federal Government under the constituiton. Maybe we can reverse this travesty of unlimited spending the Federal Government has brought upon us all. I think maybe we still might have the chance to "right the ship" before the forces of economics decend upon us. Revolutionary force is necessary at the ballot box now, if not we will see it economically or elsewhere.
  
  It will take strong leadership to bring us to fiscal sanity. Leaders that can communicate the sacrafices that must be made to pay for the debts that we all are ogligated to under our union. If not it will be every state for itself.
• believer

  

  majorspark wrote:You are correct. The Federal Government will not relinquish the power they have achieved without force. How do we oppose this force? Well we start with the force of the people voting to return power to the states and the people. Vote candidates into power that respect the powers given to the states and the people (local government) and those given to the Federal Government under the constituiton. Maybe we can reverse this travesty of unlimited spending the Federal Government has brought upon us all. I think maybe we still might have the chance to "right the ship" before the forces of economics decend upon us. Revolutionary force is necessary at the ballot box now, if not we will see it economically or elsewhere.

  In the mid-1800's this nation fought a civil war over some of those same issues. Those advocating the rights of state and local governments to serve the will of the people lost that battle.
  
  Although the battles are far less bloody, the ideological war still rages today.
  
  If the proponents of strong centralized Federal government don't get their economic acts together soon, a metaphorical Gettysburg is on the horizon.
  
  Only this time the results of that looming battle may be entirely different.
• cbus4life

  Administration for Native Americans really has no power whatsoever, it is the Bureau of Indian affairs is the one that needs to fade away, the sooner the better. The ANA actually does some nice things, providing grant money, programs, etc..
  
  The BIA sucks, though.