Archive

Our rights and the government

  • isadore
    ernest_t_bass wrote:
    isadore wrote: while central you are often quite purposely hilarious, this time you are way off.
    we have got the a health care system that fails to cover tens of millions of citizens, that gives us the lowest life expectancy of any industrialized nation with the highest infant mortality rate. these other nations have been able to design much more effective and inexpensive healthcare systems than we have. that is nothing to laugh about.
    I ain't gonna lie... this was a tough read
    :huh:
    I will see if the illustrated version is available with pictures of people dying before their time.
  • CenterBHSFan
    A "letters to the editor" from my local paper, The Times Leader:
    Silent No More

    Dear Editor,
    Why protest now?
    In the last few weeks, I have been asked, (1) "Where were you when the last administration was spending out of control?"
    My response: I was in the same comfortable place that many are today ... in my kitchen with friends complaining about the Government ... but doing nothing.
    I was part of the "Silent Majority."
    Question (2) "Why are you protesting now?"
    My response: I woke up when the government moved too fast on too many issues while spending too much of the tax payers' money.
    I woke up to the reality that some years ago the government began to grow ... slowly at first. With each consecutive election more control was grabbed by the government. Today, the people are in danger of losing not just their money, but their Constitutional rights and freedoms, possible forever. The government totally dismisses the will of people. It seems there is a war between the people and the government. A war in which there is no winner. A war in which the foundation of our country could be forever destroyed.
    All who love this country need to wake up, stand up and speak up!
    We need to do whatever we can to protect the freedoms with which God has blessed this great nation. We need to do it now, today! Be "Silent No More!"
    The government needs to slow down and listen to the will of the people.
    The people need to know the candidate for whom they are voting.
    Campaign speeches, do not necessarily reflect the beliefs of the person making the speech.
    If we do our homework and find out what candidates stood for before he or she decided to run for office we should get a better picture of what direction they will lead the nation.

    http://www.timesleaderonline.com/page/category.detail/nav/5007/Letters-to-the-editor.html
  • Cleveland Buck
    isadore wrote:
    Cleveland Buck wrote: Safety nets like unemployment and even welfare which are just general handouts to people that can be spent any way they choose are acceptable to me in a limited form and should really be run by each state. Any government entitlement into a specific industry like health care can not be financially sustained because the government's presence in that market will distort (meaning skyrocket) prices, which means everyone else will need help paying those prices, which means more government intervention, which means $12 trillion debt and crashing currency.
    privatizing health care sky rocketed the price.
    it kept the price much lower other nations with true public options.
    We don't have private health care. We have a health care system of a couple public options in Medicaid and Medicare, and the rest is subsidized by federal tax breaks and incentives. It is a mess. A truly private health care system would probably cost less than half of what we pay now for the same quality of care.

    And other countries with socialized health care don't pay as much as we do because they ration the care. They would pay double or more if people could make an appointment and see their doctor within a week or if they didn't refuse treatment to terminal patients.
  • isadore
    ernest_t_bass wrote:
    isadore wrote:it is sad you have so little faith in the American people. Our elected officials are a reflection of us, we select them. They may not baby sit your cat, but they run the institutions that protect you and your family, the police, courts and military.
    When elected, these officials focus on ONE thing in particular, before thinking about the "public" .... RE-ELECTION.

    While this may not be true for 100% of all elected officials, it is definitely true for the majority.
    sorry you are so cynical and distrustful of democracy. where is pinochet when you need him, no worries about re election and a distrust of a government role in the economy.
  • isadore
    Cleveland Buck wrote:
    isadore wrote:
    Cleveland Buck wrote: Safety nets like unemployment and even welfare which are just general handouts to people that can be spent any way they choose are acceptable to me in a limited form and should really be run by each state. Any government entitlement into a specific industry like health care can not be financially sustained because the government's presence in that market will distort (meaning skyrocket) prices, which means everyone else will need help paying those prices, which means more government intervention, which means $12 trillion debt and crashing currency.
    privatizing health care sky rocketed the price.
    it kept the price much lower other nations with true public options.
    We don't have private health care. We have a health care system of a couple public options in Medicaid and Medicare, and the rest is subsidized by federal tax breaks and incentives. It is a mess. A truly private health care system would probably cost less than half of what we pay now for the same quality of care.

    And other countries with socialized health care don't pay as much as we do because they ration the care. They would pay double or more if people could make an appointment and see their doctor within a week or if they didn't refuse treatment to terminal patients.
    it became a mess when the non-profit healthcare providers like the blue crosses and blue shield switched to for profit, then the costs skyrocketed.
    Other nations whose citizens live longer, whose babies are less likely to die, for around half the per capita cost of Americans healthcare, that sure must be rough on them. And the rationing charges are mainly baloney, they get a quality of care comparative with our own. Hey look at the results.
  • CenterBHSFan
    What's the population differential between the U.S., the UK, France, and Canada?
  • isadore
    CenterBHSFan wrote: What's the population differential between the U.S., the UK, France, and Canada?
    gosh a rooties, lets see
    USA 307 million
    Japan 127 million
    Germany 82 million
    France 65 million
    UK 62 million
    Canada 34 million
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population
    370 million people who get to live longer than Americans and have fewere of their babies die while paying appreciably less for health care while having standard living living comparative to our own.

    Of course we could throw in many other nations besides those listed above
  • LJ
    If this discussion is going to keep going on about healthcare alone, I will begin moving posts to the healthcare thread.
  • CenterBHSFan
    Well, I'm under the belief that it is OUR right to establish our standard of living as far as personal decisions, accountability and responsibility.
  • isadore
    why, that was the subject introduced in the initial post of the thread by majorsparks when he/she began it. And the discussion has been about whether that was a right and whether it should be provided by government, both reflected in the title of the thread.
    and it is so nice, snug and comfy here.
  • LJ
    isadore wrote: why, that was the subject introduced in the initial post of the thread by majorsparks when he/she began it. And the discussion has been about whether that was a right and whether it should be provided by government, both reflected in the title of the thread.
    and it is so nice, snug and comfy here.
    Discussing whether or not you feel it's a right is ok

    Discussing the benefits and problems of the healthcare system and reform belong in the healthcare thread.
  • ernest_t_bass
    Agree to disagree?

    Healthcare is needed... but not for everyone.

    Welfare is needed... but not for everyone.

    Foodstamps are needed... but not for everyone.
  • isadore
    healthcare should be available to any American
  • ernest_t_bass
    AVAILABLE is the key word. Not mandated.

    Welfare is available to those who need it, and qualify, same as most other safety nets.

    When EVERYONE gets it, regardless, you are no longer providing a safety net, but a public good.
  • CenterBHSFan
    Gosh a rooties.

    I like it! :)
  • I Wear Pants
    I still find it amazing that we live in "the greatest country on earth" and the richest one too and a good percentage of our population is absolutely fine with millions of our citizens going without health care.
  • Davey Stone
    CenterBHSFan wrote: A "letters to the editor" from my local paper, The Times Leader:
    Silent No More

    Dear Editor,
    Why protest now?
    In the last few weeks, I have been asked, (1) "Where were you when the last administration was spending out of control?"
    My response: I was in the same comfortable place that many are today ... in my kitchen with friends complaining about the Government ... but doing nothing.
    I was part of the "Silent Majority."
    Question (2) "Why are you protesting now?"
    My response: I woke up when the government moved too fast on too many issues while spending too much of the tax payers' money.
    I woke up to the reality that some years ago the government began to grow ... slowly at first. With each consecutive election more control was grabbed by the government. Today, the people are in danger of losing not just their money, but their Constitutional rights and freedoms, possible forever. The government totally dismisses the will of people. It seems there is a war between the people and the government. A war in which there is no winner. A war in which the foundation of our country could be forever destroyed.
    All who love this country need to wake up, stand up and speak up!
    We need to do whatever we can to protect the freedoms with which God has blessed this great nation. We need to do it now, today! Be "Silent No More!"
    The government needs to slow down and listen to the will of the people.
    The people need to know the candidate for whom they are voting.
    Campaign speeches, do not necessarily reflect the beliefs of the person making the speech.
    If we do our homework and find out what candidates stood for before he or she decided to run for office we should get a better picture of what direction they will lead the nation.

    http://www.timesleaderonline.com/page/category.detail/nav/5007/Letters-to-the-editor.html


    The reasoning that person who wrote the letter and people like them have is the reason I have no respect for 95% of these "Tea Party" people. They didn't protest because they didn't care what was going on because the president in office was a member of the party they support
  • CenterBHSFan
    Isa,

    My point about the number differential was that with America being so much more populated than those other countries, that our numbers are BOUND to be different than theirs.
    It cannot, realistically, be helped.
  • CenterBHSFan
    Davey Stone,

    There were two reasons listed, not just one. :)
  • ernest_t_bass
    I Wear Pants wrote: I still find it amazing that we live in "the greatest country on earth" and the richest one too and a good percentage of our population is absolutely fine with millions of our citizens going without health care.
    HEALTH
    CARE
    IS
    NEEDED!

    Not a "universal" mandated health care, that everyone must have. It should be like any other safety net. Said thing... it will get abused.
  • isadore
    ernest_t_bass wrote: AVAILABLE is the key word. Not mandated.

    Welfare is available to those who need it, and qualify, same as most other safety nets.

    When EVERYONE gets it, regardless, you are no longer providing a safety net, but a public good.
    well its not available to many and that is not good for the public.
  • isadore
    CenterBHSFan wrote: Gosh a rooties.

    I like it! :)
    well thanks, it is suitably nonsensical, but I will, in all probability, beat it to death.
  • ernest_t_bass
    isadore wrote:well its not available to many and that is not good for the public.
    I give up.
  • CenterBHSFan
    ernest_t_bass wrote:
    isadore wrote:well its not available to many and that is not good for the public.
    I give up.
    You've just been initiated into the never-ending conversation with Isa! You will have to learn to concede early, as Isa never will!
  • isadore
    CenterBHSFan wrote: Isa,

    My point about the number differential was that with America being so much more populated than those other countries, that our numbers are BOUND to be different than theirs.
    It cannot, realistically, be helped.
    lets see, when we talk about an area being more populated, we mean how crowded it is. Japan, France, UK, Germany are all much more populated than the United States. they have many more people per square mile or square kilometer than the United States.
    each of those countries except Canada are much more populated than the United States.
    Japan has 329 people per square kilometer and 127 million people
    ttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Japan#Population
    United States is 33 per square kilomter and 309 million people
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_population_density