43 Years Ago Today...4 Dead in O-Hi-O

• Belly35

  

  I think that additional information (facts) should be known:
  
  Please read this : http://dept.kent.edu/sociology/lewis/lewihen.htm
  
  Some of us remember media view which even back in the day was skewed... let refresh the series of events.
• Tiernan

  Students burned an unoccupied ROTC Bldg...you are expelled or jailed or both for those actions...not executed. There is never going to be any reason strong enough brought forward that warrants the NG packing live ammo that day. The "excuse" that the NG "feared for their well-being" is complete BS. Back in those days Belly you yourself recall the macho attitude of those who joined the military vs those who were commie pinko college pussies avoiding the draft. If any of those students had come anywhere near the NG they would have been rifle butted to the head and you know know it. Instead somebody high up and I've always believed it was Rhodes himself told those Guardsmen to shoot the bastards if you think this thing is getting out of hand. And thats what they did.
• FatHobbit

  

  Tiernan;1439577 wrote:Students burned an unoccupied ROTC Bldg...you are expelled or jailed or both for those actions...not executed. There is never going to be any reason strong enough brought forward that warrants the NG packing live ammo that day. The "excuse" that the NG "feared for their well-being" is complete BS. Back in those days Belly you yourself recall the macho attitude of those who joined the military vs those who were commie pinko college pussies avoiding the draft. If any of those students had come anywhere near the NG they would have been rifle butted to the head and you know know it. Instead somebody high up and I've always believed it was Rhodes himself told those Guardsmen to shoot the bastards if you think this thing is getting out of hand. And thats what they did.

  I am to young to know what happened, but I think you are too.
  
  From Belly's link, it's amazing to me how far away the students are who were shot and the complete clusterfuck that led up to it.
• LJ

  

  FatHobbit;1439581 wrote:I am to young to know what happened, but I think you are too.
  
  From Belly's link, it's amazing to me how far away the students are who were shot and the complete clusterfuck that led up to it.

  My uncle always said that they were scared kids shooting scared kids.
• believer

  

  LJ;1439588 wrote:My uncle always said that they were scared kids shooting scared kids.

  quite accurate
• majorspark

  

  No red blooded American should ever condone sending in the infantry with fixed bayonets and live arms to disperse an unruly crowd of unarmed civilians. The infantry is trained to kill. When threatened they will act according to the training that has been engraved in their minds. The government was not dealing with a civil insurrection. Only property had been destroyed. Up to the point the military was deployed no lives had been lost. Property can be replaced lives can't. Two of the students killed were not involved in the protest and were just trying to get to class. One was a member of the ROTC.
  
  No Americans should find these overreaches of government power any less atrocious when their unarmed political opponents find themselves on the other end of the barrel of the gubmints guns. The mayor of Kent and governor Rhodes should have been held accountable. They made the decision to use military force in this case. Whether its the Boston Massacre, the Bonus Army, or Kent State, you get the military involved in dispersing unarmed civilians innocent civilians run a high risk of being killed.
  
  
  
  
• Footwedge

  believer;1439295 wrote:Or those who know the difference between LBJ and Nixon.

  Yes it was Nixon in power in 1970. But it was LBJ's war. Not a whole lot different today with Obama running Bush's wars. LBJ was not responsible directly for Kent State. But without his invasion in 1965, after the Gulf of Tonkin ruse, there would never have been a Kent State event, nor a Memphis State event either.
• Footwedge

  believer;1439649 wrote:quite accurate

  The scared kids with the rifles numbering in the hundreds were scared of kids carrying bottles and book bags? Really?
  
  What bothers me.....it never came out who ordered the shooting. Somebody ordered it...Otherwise you wouldn't have had 27 guardsman firing weapons.
• believer

  

  Footwedge;1439946 wrote:The scared kids with the rifles numbering in the hundreds were scared of kids carrying bottles and book bags? Really?
  
  What bothers me.....it never came out who ordered the shooting. Somebody ordered it...Otherwise you wouldn't have had 27 guardsman firing weapons.

  Or some loan young Guardsman lost his cool, fired the first shot, and the rest followed. Like I said no one really knows the exact story.
  

  majorspark;1439892 wrote:No Americans should find these overreaches of government power any less atrocious when their unarmed political opponents find themselves on the other end of the barrel of the gubmints guns. The mayor of Kent and governor Rhodes should have been held accountable. They made the decision to use military force in this case. Whether its the Boston Massacre, the Bonus Army, or Kent State, you get the military involved in dispersing unarmed civilians innocent civilians run a high risk of being killed.

  Which is precisely why we should be very nervous at the reasoning behind the arms build-up going on with the DHS.
• believer

  

  Footwedge;1439946 wrote:The scared kids with the rifles numbering in the hundreds were scared of kids carrying bottles and book bags? Really?
  
  What bothers me.....it never came out who ordered the shooting. Somebody ordered it...Otherwise you wouldn't have had 27 guardsman firing weapons.

  Or some lone young Guardsman lost his cool, fired the first shot, and the rest followed. Like I said no one really knows the exact story.
  

  majorspark;1439892 wrote:No Americans should find these overreaches of government power any less atrocious when their unarmed political opponents find themselves on the other end of the barrel of the gubmints guns. The mayor of Kent and governor Rhodes should have been held accountable. They made the decision to use military force in this case. Whether its the Boston Massacre, the Bonus Army, or Kent State, you get the military involved in dispersing unarmed civilians innocent civilians run a high risk of being killed.

  Which is precisely why we should be very nervous at the reasoning behind the arms build-up going on with the DHS.
• Belly35

  

  Let first address the live ammo issue. This is not fact this is my opinion based on some information from the National Guard. Looking back over the history of the National Guard events of the past leading up to May 4 1970 what is the roll of the NG. The civil disorder of the race riots in the late 60’s which threaten the NG units but also placed them in a position of protect private property and government offices. In the 70’s they encounter government protest and political unrest riots. Massive demonstration, burning of building, destruction of property and violent groups Weatherman for example bombing government operation. Again rioting destruction and violence was the action of those events. From those early days the NG for protection, where issued live ammo base on potential events and the violence of the 24 hours before the order was given to call in the NG on May 4th.
  
  Knowing some of the National Guard individuals and knowledgeable about their training this
  unwarranted shooting was going to happen at some point.
  The NG of those day where weekend warriors, enlisted to avoid the draft and a rag tag unit playing soldier one weekend a month for 8 hours. Poorly trained, improperly equipped, incompetent leadership, unskilled in tactical operation and not prepared of the task. The Chain of Command was skewed, the multiple different NG units in disarray and the direction of the operation unclear. My friend told me that his unit at one point was given two different orders from to different commanders within 5 minutes. At one point the guys where becoming more and more concern because of the inconsistency. My friend mentioned to me that, eight guys in his NG unit had never been to basic training nor fired their weapon. He and some of the others had never been on military maneuvers at Camp Perry in over a year.
  
  This was a cluster fuck waiting to happen and all the elements were in place for this to happen.
• Tiernan

  Nice recap Belly...and as I have said for 40 yrs, it was clearly the fault of the NG & OH Govt (not Feds at all...) this happened. Just admit it Ohio and case is closed, hopefully never to happen again.
• believer

  

  Belly35;1440730 wrote:Let first address the live ammo issue. This is not fact this is my opinion based on some information from the National Guard. Looking back over the history of the National Guard events of the past leading up to May 4 1970 what is the roll of the NG. The civil disorder of the race riots in the late 60’s which threaten the NG units but also placed them in a position of protect private property and government offices. In the 70’s they encounter government protest and political unrest riots. Massive demonstration, burning of building, destruction of property and violent groups Weatherman for example bombing government operation. Again rioting destruction and violence was the action of those events. From those early days the NG for protection, where issued live ammo base on potential events and the violence of the 24 hours before the order was given to call in the NG on May 4th.
  
  Knowing some of the National Guard individuals and knowledgeable about their training this
  unwarranted shooting was going to happen at some point.
  The NG of those day where weekend warriors, enlisted to avoid the draft and a rag tag unit playing soldier one weekend a month for 8 hours. Poorly trained, improperly equipped, incompetent leadership, unskilled in tactical operation and not prepared of the task. The Chain of Command was skewed, the multiple different NG units in disarray and the direction of the operation unclear. My friend told me that his unit at one point was given two different orders from to different commanders within 5 minutes. At one point the guys where becoming more and more concern because of the inconsistency. My friend mentioned to me that, eight guys in his NG unit had never been to basic training nor fired their weapon. He and some of the others had never been on military maneuvers at Camp Perry in over a year.
  
  This was a cluster fuck waiting to happen and all the elements were in place for this to happen.

  winner!
• BRF

  

  I remember lots of people in my town saying that they should have shot more. It was a weird time back then, so so different than today.
• fish82

  

  believer;1439972 wrote:Or some lone young Guardsman lost his cool, fired the first shot, and the rest followed. Like I said no one really knows the exact story.

  Smart money is on this.
• Footwedge

  fish82;1441160 wrote:Smart money is on this.

  To you and believer, I resoectfully disagree. Eyewitnesses confirmed that more than one posed on one knee and then fired. Somebody made the decision...and others followed those orders.
• LJ

  

  Footwedge;1441236 wrote:To you and believer, I resoectfully disagree. Eyewitnesses confirmed that more than one posed on one knee and then fired. Somebody made the decision...and others followed those orders.

  My Uncle said that they used the Kent State shooting as situational training multiple times per year until the mid 70's. It was training on how not to lose your cool and how to not just shoot out of fear or nervousness during riots. He was in the Ohio National Guard 1964-1975. He was a Staff Sergeant.
• Tiernan

  The one lone guardsman losing his cool scenario is pure Govt BS manufactured to appease a public that loved to kick protesters in the nutz if they had a chance but couldn't quite stomach shooting them on a college campus. Rhodes walked on this one and so did alot of NGs in that unit. I'll bet those fucks are haunted by some pretty vivid dreams today.
• HitsRus

  

  ....and what of the complicity of the protest organizers? I agree that no one deserved to be shot/killed, but when you start burning buildings and throwing bottles, that crosses the line of peaceful protest or civil disobedience. When someone dies because of your actions whether willful or not, I believe the charge is negligent homicide. I hope their dreams are 'vivid' too.
• Tiernan

  HitsRus;1441279 wrote:....and what of the complicity of the protest organizers? I agree that no one deserved to be shot/killed, but when you start burning buildings and throwing bottles, that crosses the line of peaceful protest or civil disobedience. When someone dies because of your actions whether willful or not, I believe the charge is negligent homicide. I hope their dreams are 'vivid' too.

  I'm fairly certain the protesters sleep pretty soundly at night.
• fish82

  

  Tiernan;1441338 wrote:I'm fairly certain the protesters sleep pretty soundly at night.

  Especially the dude in the bottom photo.
• Glory Days

  

  Tiernan;1441338 wrote:I'm fairly certain the protesters sleep pretty soundly at night.

  which shows you how sick minded they are using innocent people as fodder.