Open carry ... who protecting weapon owner rights

• FatHobbit

  

  gut;1393580 wrote:but oh my they'll go all day about abortion, gay rights and guns because you can't really be wrong on those issues.

  I agree there are other issues that are difficult to solve, but those three issues are very very important to some people. And they definitely have a right or wrong answer. (different people have different opinions on what the correct answer is, but they do have very strong opinions.)
• gut

  FatHobbit;1393773 wrote:I agree there are other issues that are difficult to solve, but those three issues are very very important to some people. And they definitely have a right or wrong answer. (different people have different opinions on what the correct answer is, but they do have very strong opinions.)

  Objectively I don't think there is a right or wrong answer but just one's personal beliefs. Roe v. Wade is long settled, IMO. There's valid arguments on both sides, but the debates are largely dominated by opinion, rather than fact, which is why politicians love to pontificate on those questions. Unless they put their foot in their mouth, they can't really be pinned down for their opinion being wrong.
  
  I also think they these are mostly state issues.
• gut

  FatHobbit;1393766 wrote:This is my only problem with background checks. And then they do ****ty background checks so all they really get out of it is a list of people who have guns.

  Considering "almost" everyone has guns I'm not really sure they even need a list.
• se-alum

  

  stlouiedipalma;1393384 wrote:Here's my position on guns. I've never owned a gun. My only experience with guns was a limited amount of hunting in my teens with my brother and cousins. I don't have a problem with gun ownership and the 2nd Amendment, although I do feel that it has evolved way beyond the Framers' intent. Without getting into the whole "infringing on freedoms" issue, my question regarding assault weapons and unlimited magazine size is simply this. Why is it necessary? And what is the big deal about universal background checks? Unless you are mentally unbalanced or a criminal I wouldn't think this would be a problem for the responsible gun owner. How about some serious opinions on this?

  Wow...this is a complete lack of understanding concerning the Bill of Rights and our Constitution.
• Devils Advocate

  

  
• FatHobbit

  

  Devils Advocate;1394280 wrote:

  Were you looking for the meme thread?
• BoatShoes

  gut;1393580 wrote:This whole gun issue is turning into quite the circus. Looks like abortion an gay rights are going to have to make room for another rather pointless debate on a decided and irreversible issue. Politicians love that shit because you can gin-up your base and pander to an electorate by offering flowering opinions without having to really know anything. Nobody wants to talk about taxes and the economy, but oh my they'll go all day about abortion, gay rights and guns because you can't really be wrong on those issues.

  I think this is generally spot on. I mean it's going to take a huge, national consensus and action for anything to be different from the status quo and that isn't happening any time soon and there are 300 million guns out there.
• stlouiedipalma

  se-alum;1394159 wrote:Wow...this is a complete lack of understanding concerning the Bill of Rights and our Constitution.

  Please elaborate. I understand the Bill of Rights and the Constitution, but what is it about my comment/question that leads you to reach this conclusion? Is it a fundamental legal issue or does it simply conflict with your interpretation of them?
• Uz2Bon36

  

  Alabama man may have been shot dead by 2-year-old son
  
  
  http://www.whio.com/news/news/national/alabama-man-may-have-been-shot-dead-2-year-old-son/nnMbs/
• Belly35

  

  What flag would be flying in this household? This will explain a lot more?
• rmolin73

  

  http://www.ifyouonlynews.com/guns/right-wing-open-carry-patriot-shoots-and-kills-his-3-and-4-year-old-sons-images/
• TedSheckler

  

  And a mom just killed her 3 kids with their blankets. Your point?
• rmolin73

  

  I just wanted to see who would be the first clown to dance for me. Thanks
• like_that

  

  rmolin73;1746436 wrote:I just wanted to see who would be the first clown to dance for me. Thanks

  Never thought you would resort to being tiernan.
• BoatShoes

  TedSheckler;1746429 wrote:And a mom just killed her 3 kids with their blankets. Your point?

  The Free Market raises insurance premiums for gun owners not blanket owners.
  
  Blankets add objective value to society. They make people better off with few external costs bron by society.
  
  Firearms actually don't make people objectibely better off in the minds of the free market actors that underwrite their risks. Moreover they have tremendously high external costs for our society in comparison to the little or negative value that they provide.
  
  Mind you, I am well aware that the cat is out of the bag with 300 million guns out there. But, a better world would have the firearm industry acknowledge and bear the burden of its costs.
  
  I mean who should be paying for the cops now staffing movie theaters on overtime? The firearm industry IMHO.
• isadore

  The Second Amendment was written to create a militia. It should have gone the way of the 3rd Amendment to insignificance.
• FatHobbit

  

  BoatShoes;1746465 wrote: I mean who should be paying for the cops now staffing movie theaters on overtime? The firearm industry IMHO.

  Would you have the auto industry pay for cops who patrol streets? There are a lot more people killed in car accidents than by firearms. How about the cell phone industry pay for accidents caused by texting and driving? The alcohol industry pay for accidents caused by drunk driving?
• CenterBHSFan

  

  BoatShoes;1746465 wrote:The Free Market raises insurance premiums for gun owners not blanket owners.
  
  Blankets add objective value to society. They make people better off with few external costs bron by society.
  
  Firearms actually don't make people objectibely better off in the minds of the free market actors that underwrite their risks. Moreover they have tremendously high external costs for our society in comparison to the little or negative value that they provide.
  
  Mind you, I am well aware that the cat is out of the bag with 300 million guns out there. But, a better world would have the firearm industry acknowledge and bear the burden of its costs.
  
  I mean who should be paying for the cops now staffing movie theaters on overtime? The firearm industry IMHO.

  wat!
• BoatShoes

  FatHobbit;1746517 wrote:Would you have the auto industry pay for cops who patrol streets? There are a lot more people killed in car accidents than by firearms. How about the cell phone industry pay for accidents caused by texting and driving? The alcohol industry pay for accidents caused by drunk driving?

  All of those kinds of taxation would be better and preferable to income taxation for example so yes.
  
  And, we do levy taxes and fees on alcohol on motor vehicles for precisely these reasons.
  
  These are pigovian taxes and they are regularly used in policy making and probably the best type of taxation because it tries to make economic agents bear the true cost of their activity.
• BoatShoes

  CenterBHSFan;1746525 wrote:wat!

  Smart take!
• BoatShoes

  FatHobbit;1746517 wrote:Would you have the auto industry pay for cops who patrol streets? There are a lot more people killed in car accidents than by firearms. How about the cell phone industry pay for accidents caused by texting and driving? The alcohol industry pay for accidents caused by drunk driving?

  With gins though I think you would have to tie it to a deal that we make a 3/4 requirement for any future gun bans like the "assault weapons ban" which was a waste of time and poisoned the well for reasonable firearms regulation.
• Belly35

  

  BoatShoes;1746620 wrote:All of those kinds of taxation would be better and preferable to income taxation for example so yes.
  
  And, we do levy taxes and fees on alcohol on motor vehicles for precisely these reasons.
  
  These are pigovian taxes and they are regularly used in policy making and probably the best type of taxation because it tries to make economic agents bear the true cost of their activity.

  Why is it people like you are so prepared to tax everything.... What you want to do is alway make the innocent citizens who don't abuse the product, the legal and responsible individual and the producers of this country for what the irresponsible, corrupt, stupid and criminals do. Raise the cost to purchase good via tax and create $15.00 minimum wage...the ball keeps rolling.
  
  Make this simple for people like you: crimes committed with a firearm ... Life term or death ... The end of the life time career criminal off the streets and a new chapter to a better society.
  Crimes committed with a weapon other than a firearm: 20 years minimum any injury to the victims additional 10 years per victim... Death to victims... Simple.... Death by sharks predictor vs predictor. Fair is fair....
  
  accidents, injury and destruction is the result of the user not the ( thing) people have to take responsibility, not society and producers to be punish for others actions.
  
  Use common sense man... Example ... Think back to your youth
  Class nobody get recess to day because Boatshoes jammed cheese cracker up his nose durning Fox News, current event class... Punish all for your stupidity, incompency, behavior and poor judgement... Get fucking real
  
  oh! Side note. You make the team or you get cut ... come back next year ... you have 12 more years to get better
• BoatShoes

  Belly35;1746696 wrote:Why is it people like you are so prepared to tax everything.... What you want to do is alway make the innocent citizens who don't abuse the product, the legal and responsible individual and the producers of this country for what the irresponsible, corrupt, stupid and criminals do. Raise the cost to purchase good via tax and create $15.00 minimum wage...the ball keeps rolling.
  
  Make this simple for people like you: crimes committed with a firearm ... Life term or death ... The end of the life time career criminal off the streets and a new chapter to a better society.
  Crimes committed with a weapon other than a firearm: 20 years minimum any injury to the victims additional 10 years per victim... Death to victims... Simple.... Death by sharks predictor vs predictor. Fair is fair....
  
  accidents, injury and destruction is the result of the user not the ( thing) people have to take responsibility, not society and producers to be punish for others actions.
  
  Use common sense man... Example ... Think back to your youth
  Class nobody get recess to day because Boatshoes jammed cheese cracker up his nose durning Fox News, current event class... Punish all for your stupidity, incompency, behavior and poor judgement... Get fucking real
  
  oh! Side note. You make the team or you get cut ... come back next year ... you have 12 more years to get better

  In the very post you quoted I said that I would rather tax things that have negative social costs than things like income...which should make clear that I don't want to tax everything.
  
  In Huron County recently a law abiding gun owner walked outside and shot his neighbor for mowing the lawn at 9 pm and she died.
  
  No amount of gun regulation short of a total ban would stop this silliness. That guy was not a criminal until he shot the woman and no amount of threats of dying by capital punishment would stop uch idiocy.
  
  We have accepted this as part of American life. The firearm industry should bear the burden.
• Belly35

  

  BoatShoes;1746858 wrote:In the very post you quoted I said that I would rather tax things that have negative social costs than things like income...which should make clear that I don't want to tax everything.
  
  In Huron County recently a law abiding gun owner walked outside and shot his neighbor for mowing the lawn at 9 pm and she died.
  
  No amount of gun regulation short of a total ban would stop this silliness. That guy was not a criminal until he shot the woman and no amount of threats of dying by capital punishment would stop uch idiocy.
  
  We have accepted this as part of American life. The firearm industry should bear the burden.

  In your example and all the examples given where a legal permit gun owner commits a crime … I have this to say. “All gun owners are now guilty without trial.”
  
  If that your stance than the Auto industries, firearm industries, trojan and milk producer should bear the burden ...What about the government you’re a consentient advocate for the incompetent, corruption and fraud .. do I have to list this administration, hillary and obama contributions to the harming/wrong doing of citizens, industry, business, personal individuals/ groups. The Republicans are not exempt for those types of action.
  
  Four dead American where their justice….
  Who’s to bear that burden?
  
  There will always be (can’t think of a proper wording so I will use) colloidal damage with weapons but without the 2nd Amendment (When only cops and government have guns, it's called a "police state".)
  
  Without the arming of the population ("To disarm the people... was the best and most effectual way to enslave them.")
  
  Those same people you support and I support as representatives via their own greed, power, influence will not bear the burden of their actions or the action of the government against the citizens. (As the Founding Fathers knew well, a government that does not trust its honest, law-abiding, taxpaying citizens with the means of self-defense is not itself worthy of trust. Laws disarming honest citizens proclaim that the government is the master, not the servant, of the people.)
  
  (The possession of arms by the people is the ultimate warrant that government governs only with the consent of the governed.)
  
  
  What we have excepted is that it is easy to blame, blame others and everything else, rather than for individual wrong/crazy action of a few... for the profiteering of a few and the political justicifation of ideaolgy.
• BoatShoes

  Belly35;1746887 wrote:In your example and all the examples given where a legal permit gun owner commits a crime … I have this to say. “All gun owners are now guilty without trial.”
  
  If that your stance than the Auto industries, firearm industries, trojan and milk producer should bear the burden ...What about the government you’re a consentient advocate for the incompetent, corruption and fraud .. do I have to list this administration, hillary and obama contributions to the harming/wrong doing of citizens, industry, business, personal individuals/ groups. The Republicans are not exempt for those types of action.
  
  Four dead American where their justice….
  Who’s to bear that burden?
  
  There will always be (can’t think of a proper wording so I will use) colloidal damage with weapons but without the 2nd Amendment (When only cops and government have guns, it's called a "police state".)
  
  Without the arming of the population ("To disarm the people... was the best and most effectual way to enslave them.")
  
  Those same people you support and I support as representatives via their own greed, power, influence will not bear the burden of their actions or the action of the government against the citizens. (As the Founding Fathers knew well, a government that does not trust its honest, law-abiding, taxpaying citizens with the means of self-defense is not itself worthy of trust. Laws disarming honest citizens proclaim that the government is the master, not the servant, of the people.)
  
  (The possession of arms by the people is the ultimate warrant that government governs only with the consent of the governed.)
  
  
  What we have excepted is that it is easy to blame, blame others and everything else, rather than for individual wrong/crazy action of a few... for the profiteering of a few and the political justicifation of ideaolgy.

  As I said previously, yes good public policy would try to get other market participants like automobile manufacturers and their consumers...alcohol distributors and their consumers...etc....bear the true economic cost of these activities.
  
  Your rant about banning guns is spurious as I said I don't want that and that it is impossible in the U.S.
  
  It has nothing to do with guilt. Firearms manufacturers and consumers are freeloading on the rest of society that pays for the costs of mass gun ownership. People can have all the guns they want just take responsibility and pay for the social costs they impose on everyone else.
  
  Ohio recently raised taxes on cigarettes for these sorts of reasons - with the support of Governor Kasich.