Archive

Why do you hate government

  • Footwedge
    Don't like the government because they have their puppet strings pulled by the plutocrats and the oligarchs. Otherwise, we wouldn't have the Keynesian funded military with 4 wars and. 750 military bases around the world. We also would enjoy full employment here in the states if the government would be patriotic to the populace, instead of being patriotic to the corporate oligarchs and capitalist monopolists and their "legal cartels".
  • BoatShoes
    Romney doesn't seem to hate government in Israel:

    http://www.buzzfeed.com/zekejmiller/romney-praises-israels-socialized-health-care-sys

    Romney noted how Israel's Healthcare costs are much lower than ours despite being a socialized healthcare system wherein everyone is entitled to health insurance.

    It'd be interesting if we had anyone in the media worth his salt ask the the obvious question about why he might praise Israel's system which is socialism and much more efficient than our own while deride Obamacare which is not socialism but rather preserves private control of the means of production seeking to return, instead, to an even more inefficient system prior-obamacare.
  • isadore
    it must be the name, hell he was ok with it when it was Romney Care
  • ptown_trojans_1
    BoatShoes;1237153 wrote:Romney doesn't seem to hate government in Israel:

    http://www.buzzfeed.com/zekejmiller/romney-praises-israels-socialized-health-care-sys

    Romney noted how Israel's Healthcare costs are much lower than ours despite being a socialized healthcare system wherein everyone is entitled to health insurance.

    It'd be interesting if we had anyone in the media worth his salt ask the the obvious question about why he might praise Israel's system which is socialism and much more efficient than our own while deride Obamacare which is not socialism but rather preserves private control of the means of production seeking to return, instead, to an even more inefficient system prior-obamacare.
    Not to rain on the parade, but Obama has stated pretty much the same thing in 2008 before he was elected. In fact, Clinton even said the same thing.
    Pretty much Obama and Romney have the same policy toward Israel and Iran if you dive into it.
    Arms sales, missile defense cooperation, and intelligence sharing are the highest they have ever been. The DOD is partly funding the Israeli Iron Dome and David's Sling program.

    On the healthcare, ehhh Israel is a small country, so it does not have a real comparison to here.
  • BoatShoes
    ptown_trojans_1;1237408 wrote:Not to rain on the parade, but Obama has stated pretty much the same thing in 2008 before he was elected. In fact, Clinton even said the same thing.
    Pretty much Obama and Romney have the same policy toward Israel and Iran if you dive into it.
    Arms sales, missile defense cooperation, and intelligence sharing are the highest they have ever been. The DOD is partly funding the Israeli Iron Dome and David's Sling program.

    On the healthcare, ehhh Israel is a small country, so it does not have a real comparison to here.
    No doubt their pre-election generalities are similar as all Romney has to do is speak in platitudes and smile and his job is done, but instead he's dropping the ball and praising a healthcare delivery system that is the type of thing that would be called communist in our own country. The size doesn't really matter...you take your economic experiments where you find them. Milton Friedman first used Tangir in order to promote freely floating exchange rates.
  • Con_Alma
    BoatShoes;1237153 wrote:...
    Romney noted how Israel's Healthcare costs are much lower than ours despite being a socialized healthcare system wherein everyone is entitled to health insurance.

    It'd be interesting if we had anyone in the media worth his salt ask the the obvious question about why he might praise Israel's system which is socialism and much more efficient than our own while deride Obamacare which is not socialism but rather preserves private control of the means of production seeking to return, instead, to an even more inefficient system prior-obamacare.
    Did the people of Israel choose this system? I truly don't know.

    The backlash in the US has always seemed to be about forced commerce. Even if an option is the most efficient and cost effect you won't gain mass buy in when you force people like was done in this scenario.
  • Con_Alma
    isadore;1237181 wrote:it must be the name, hell he was ok with it when it was Romney Care
    The difference was that as a State they were able to choose such a path. The feds forcing State's participation is not necessarily a good thing.
  • isadore
    Con_Alma;1237634 wrote:The difference was that as a State they were able to choose such a path. The feds forcing State's participation is not necessarily a good thing.
    the state "forced" people to participate in mass as national system would. in each case the law was passed by a majority of the people's representatives.
  • elitesmithie05
    Since it wasn't explicitly stated in the Constitution therefore it is a State right. Huge difference.
    isadore;1237669 wrote:the state "forced" people to participate in mass as national system would. in each case the law was passed by a majority of the people's representatives.
  • isadore
    elitesmithie05;1237962 wrote:Since it wasn't explicitly stated in the Constitution therefore it is a State right. Huge difference.
    no there is something called implied and inherent powers. checkout mcculloch v maryland
  • isadore
    we have higher infant mortality, shorter life expectancy and
    NEWS: US #1 in deaths from preventable disease among industrialized countries

    http://www.ufppc.org/us-a-world-news-mainmenu-35/7004-news-us-1-in-deaths-from-preventable-disease-among-industrialized-countries-ft.html

    and by far the greatest cost
    http://www.ohiochatter.com/forum/showthread.php?35658-Why-do-you-hate-government/page2
  • cruiser_96
    The assumption that a government can do for me (regarding my care of health) what I otherwise couldn't is ludicrous. The notion that government can do ANYTHING for its population cheaper than I could otherwise is just as silly. And the thought of the government taking thousands of dollars from its people for over a lifetime for a minimal existence for an additional 5 to 7 or even 8 or 10 years is a fool's trade in the light of freedom and liberty.

    Few HATE government, as a whole. Most hate the intrusion for the sake of anything.

    "The government that governs least, governs best." Civil Disobediance H.D. Thoreau
  • isadore
    cruiser_96;1239561 wrote:The assumption that a government can do for me (regarding my care of health) what I otherwise couldn't is ludicrous. The notion that government can do ANYTHING for its population cheaper than I could otherwise is just as silly. And the thought of the government taking thousands of dollars from its people for over a lifetime for a minimal existence for an additional 5 to 7 or even 8 or 10 years is a fool's trade in the light of freedom and liberty.

    Few HATE government, as a whole. Most hate the intrusion for the sake of anything.

    "The government that governs least, governs best." Civil Disobediance H.D. Thoreau
    the last ten years of a person's life are not necessarily a minimal existence, especially in an industrialized state with a safety net. most people would be quite willing to pay thousands for that guarantee. Are you planning on being your own armed forces or just hiring your own military?
  • cruiser_96
    "...for that guarantee."

    Huh... assuming in a GUARANTEE that the government can add one second to my life. Interesting.

    "Are you planning on being your own armed forces or just hiring your own military?"

    Huh. Thought we were talking health care. But, if someone would like to come in my house uninvited, sure, I'll team up with my Desert Eagle and we'll be our own military. But you probably meant as a national entity, in which you've shifted your argument, but that's fine. #GoalPostShifter
  • said_aouita
    Con_Alma;1236001 wrote:Diet and cultural habits have as much or more impact on life expectancy than they type of medical care provided or available.
    This.
  • isadore
    cruiser_96;1239589 wrote:"...for that guarantee."

    Huh... assuming in a GUARANTEE that the government can add one second to my life. Interesting.

    "Are you planning on being your own armed forces or just hiring your own military?"

    Huh. Thought we were talking health care. But, if someone would like to come in my house uninvited, sure, I'll team up with my Desert Eagle and we'll be our own military. But you probably meant as a national entity, in which you've shifted your argument, but that's fine. #GoalPostShifter
    cruiser_96 wrote: The notion that government can do ANYTHING for its population cheaper than I could otherwise is just as silly.
    gosh a ruddies you made a blanket condemnation of government activity including national defense so hire your own army.
    and jeez the industrialization nations provide a safety net for their citizens so they don't have to have a minimal existence the last ten years of our lives and thousand of dollars for 10 more years seem a pretty good deal.
  • isadore
    said_aouita;1239688 wrote:This.
    gosh a ruddies these nations with long life expectancies have greater government involvement than the us
    but of course we can just blame the victims of our systems
    for the high infant mortality
    the high rate of death from prevenable diseases
    the have shortened life expectancy , it is of course all their fault, not that of the most expensive health care system in the world.
  • cruiser_96
    I'm not going to lie... I kind of like gosh a ruddies. If you don't mind, I'd like to add that to my lingo.
  • isadore
    please be my guest.
  • pmoney25
    isadore;1239794 wrote:gosh a ruddies these nations with long life expectancies have greater government involvement than the us
    but of course we can just blame the victims of our systems
    for the high infant mortality
    the high rate of death from prevenable diseases
    the have shortened life expectancy , it is of course all their fault, not that of the most expensive health care system in the world.

    I know you will probably not give a straight answer but do you think the American diet and food system have anything to do with us having more problems and cost or is it strictly our healthcare system? Do Americans share any blame for poor health choices?
  • isadore
    all I see is a failed health system whose advocates continuously make excuses for it by blaming its victims. poor get screwed.]\
    for example
    social security administration study. Look at Table 4: since 1977, the life expectancy of male workers retiring at age 65 has risen 6 years in the top half of the income distribution, but only 1.3 years in the bottom half.
    http://www.ohiochatter.com/forum/showthread.php?35658-Why-do-you-hate-government/page2
  • pmoney25
    isadore;1239879 wrote:all I see is a failed health system whose advocates continuously make excuses for it by blaming its victims. poor get screwed.]\
    for example
    social security administration study. Look at Table 4: since 1977, the life expectancy of male workers retiring at age 65 has risen 6 years in the top half of the income distribution, but only 1.3 years in the bottom half.
    http://www.ohiochatter.com/forum/showthread.php?35658-Why-do-you-hate-government/page2

    I am not blaming the victims and believe me I am not an advocate of the recent system as I am not an advocate of the ACA. I am just wondering if you think our life choices have any effect on health care. Do you think that less people will be obese and excercise more? Do you think people will smoke/drink less and eat healthier food? It seems to me you think poor people cannot make healthy life choices?
  • Con_Alma
    isadore;1239575 wrote:the last ten years of a person's life are not necessarily a minimal existence, especially in an industrialized state with a safety net. . most people would be quite willing to pay thousands for that guarantee....
    Then let us choose.
  • gut
    isadore;1239575 wrote:most people would be quite willing to pay thousands for that guarantee.
    Ummmm, how about TENS OF THOUSANDS, forcibly (i.e. 1.2% Medicare portion of FICA for our adult working lives). Actually, by the time I retire this "guarantee" will have cost me @ $100k (assuming modest investment returns).


    edit: how sloppy of me...I forgot the employer match which technically is my income...so double that and make it TWO HUNDRED THOUSAND. That buys a hell of a lot of insurance on the open market.
  • isadore
    gut;1239906 wrote:Ummmm, how about TENS OF THOUSANDS, forcibly (i.e. 1.2% Medicare portion of FICA for our adult working lives). Actually, by the time I retire this "guarantee" will have cost me @ $100k (assuming modest investment returns).


    edit: how sloppy of me...I forgot the employer match which technically is my income...so double that and make it TWO HUNDRED THOUSAND. That buys a hell of a lot of insurance on the open market.
    gosh aruddies that is not my number, I was using crusier_96 numbers, cruiser is an opponent of government medical system
    cruiser_96 wrote:And the thought of the government taking thousands of dollars from its people for over a lifetime for a minimal existence for an additional 5 to 7 or even 8 or 10 years is a fool's trade in the light of freedom and liberty.
    the attitude you express is the one that if carried out will cause the poor, especially the working to suffer if we depend on private coverage. of course it all falls back to the basic right philosophy, i got mine, screw you.