Republican candidates for 2012

• isadore

  We constantly get these comments condemning the patriot act. They seem pro forma. Just whining. How has the passage of the Patriotic Act effected you directly. What alterations has it made in your life. In your day to day activities. In your ability to express yourself. Are you all living in fear right now.
  Is there something you were doing on 9/10/01 that you dont do now because of the Patriot Act? What it might have stopped some people from doing is in all probability an improvement on the life and safety of the rest of us.
• I Wear Pants

  isadore;984555 wrote:We constantly get these comments condemning the patriot act. They seem pro forma. Just whining. How has the passage of the Patriotic Act effected you directly. What alterations has it made in your life. In your day to day activities. In your ability to express yourself. Are you all living in fear right now.
  Is there something you were doing on 9/10/01 that you dont do now because of the Patriot Act? What it might have stopped some people from doing is in all probability an improvement on the life and safety of the rest of us.

  Using that same logic you shouldn't "whine" about 9/11 since it probably didn't personally affect you in your day to day activities, your ability to express yourself,etc.
  
  The logic is stupid there just as it's stupid to say that one must be directly and measurably affected by an event, bill, or anything else to have a dissenting opinion on it.
• ts1227

  

  
  
  (at least the parts where isadore returned)
• I Wear Pants

  Picture fail. Link it again?
• isadore

  I Wear Pants;984561 wrote:Using that same logic you shouldn't "whine" about 9/11 since it probably didn't personally affect you in your day to day activities, your ability to express yourself,etc.
  
  The logic is stupid there just as it's stupid to say that one must be directly and measurably affected by an event, bill, or anything else to have a dissenting opinion on it.

  as to be expected it went over your head. As you write criticism of this attack on our fundamental rights, you show how little effect and significance this piece of legislation has to the lives of the great predonderance of Americans.
  You scream about this abuse of your personal rights, that does not abuse them at all. Good ahead and dissent, big fucking deal.
  It provides tools to use against what most Americans consider to be "bad guys" while not interfering in our personal actions or right of expression. Go ahead bitch about it, the Patriot Act sure does not stop you from doing it.
  Now if you want to organize a terrorist cell there may be a problem, but otherwise complain about the Patriot Act all you want.
• O-Trap

  

  Actually, a violation of the right to privacy can quite easily be experienced by someone, and it may even affect them, without them perceiving its effect.
  
  Suppose my entire house was tapped and everything I ever did was monitored (actors aside, think "Truman Show"). My right to privacy would certainly be violated, but I may not even realize it is happening.
  
  So to suggest that you or I am not affected may indeed be something one cannot say in full confidence. Now, you may not care about that right, but the fact that you don't care doesn't mean your right is not being infringed upon. It just means that you're okay with fewer rights than are granted per the founding documents.
  
  I would hope that one could understand both sides of that coin, though.
• I Wear Pants

  Calm down there little guy.
  
  Not meant for O-Trap obviously.
• isadore

  O-Trap;984588 wrote:Actually, a violation of the right to privacy can quite easily be experienced by someone, and it may even affect them, without them perceiving its effect.
  
  Suppose my entire house was tapped and everything I ever did was monitored (actors aside, think "Truman Show"). My right to privacy would certainly be violated, but I may not even realize it is happening.
  
  So to suggest that you or I am not affected may indeed be something one cannot say in full confidence. Now, you may not care about that right, but the fact that you don't care doesn't mean your right is not being infringed upon. It just means that you're okay with fewer rights than are granted per the founding documents.
  
  I would hope that one could understand both sides of that coin, though.

  The Truman show is a work of fiction as are the many other other paranoid fantasies. Now if you want to believe that someone is watching your every action that is of course your right. You can come on here an rave about how the CIA and the FBI are watching your every action and how you sit at home at night wearing a tinfoil halo so they can not read your thoughts. Guess what that is your right and people were raving those delusional fantasies before 9/11 and they will be raving them on its 200th anniversary of the attack . And the Patriot Act has not limited that right in any way. You know I still have my freedom of expression and it has not been interfered with in any way. I already have many more rights than the people who wrote "the founding document" ever thought I would have. They allowed the sedition act of 1798 that limited basic rights and they had no problem with allowing states to limit all basic rights. The 14th Amendment and the Supreme gave you those protetions from the states, not the original founding document. Hell if we want to get picky "the founding document" did not even include the Bill of Rights.
  But in reality of today your complaints about denial of rights amount to nothing. About as much as my denial of rights when a law is passed extending copyrights which keep me from ripping off Ernest Hemingway. God the suffering that caused me.
• I Wear Pants

  isadore;984606 wrote:The Truman show is a work of fiction as are the many other other paranoid fantasies. Now if you want to believe that someone is watching your every action that is of course your right. You can come on here an rave about how the CIA and the FBI are watching your every action and how you sit at home at night wearing a tinfoil halo so they can not read your thoughts. Guess what that is your right and people were raving those delusional fantasies before 9/11 and they will be raving them on its 200th anniversary of the attack . And the Patriot Act has not limited that right in any way. You know I still have my freedom of expression and it has not been interfered with in any way. I already have many more rights than the people who wrote "the founding document" ever thought I would have. They allowed the sedition act of 1798 that limited basic rights and they had no problem with allowing states to limit all basic rights. The 14th Amendment and the Supreme gave you those protetions from the states, not the original founding document. Hell if we want to get picky "the founding document" did not even include the Bill of Rights.
  But in reality of today your complaints about denial of rights amount to nothing. About as much as my denial of rights when a law is passed extending copyrights which keep me from ripping off Ernest Hemingway. God the suffering that caused me.

  This coming from the dude with a tinfoil house afraid that the Afghans, Iraqis, and Iranians are coming to get him.
  
  And according to the great isadore the Amendments to the constitution are now to be considered lesser parts of it that can be violated and no one is allowed to complain about them without being considered paranoid whiners or unamerican freedom haters.
• isadore

  I Wear Pants;984608 wrote:This coming from the dude with a tinfoil house afraid that the Afghans, Iraqis, and Iranians are coming to get him.
  
  And according to the great isadore the Amendments to the constitution are now to be considered lesser parts of it that can be violated and no one is allowed to complain about them without being considered paranoid whiners or unamerican freedom haters.

  I do realize to you Afghan, Iraqi and Iranian terrorists are good guys. And your opinion is of course protected by our 1st Amendment. The Patriot Act does not interfere with you expressing that opinion on a public forum.
  We all use that basic right on here without fear and not shaking in fear because of the Patriot Act. Gosh people get to complain and whine all they want, even about the non existent threat of the Patriot Act.
• I Wear Pants

  And you're free to express your opinion that you would like to see the downfall of this country via economic means and the death of our soldiers. Which you do all the time.
• isadore

  the Patriot Act protects American citizens, even as it allows freedom of expression with people saying despiceable statements like 9/11 bombers were heroes and that killers of American servicemen are not bad guys without legal repercussions.
• I Wear Pants

  Yes, we see that you approve of a totalitarian-esque policies like the Patriot Act and also that you wish for our current economy to falter by spending countless billions that we do not have on wars overseas which do not make the country more safe and result in American soldiers dying. You've said this many times. Anything new to add?
• isadore

  The term totalitarianesque as applied to America under the Patriot Act is terminology of a dilettante at best. In a world with true totalitarian regimes, Baathist Iraq, theocratic Iran or Taliban ruled Afghanistan make that description ridiculous. People in those states would have no trouble providing an extensive list of their right denied or their oppressions suffered. I sure don’t see any long list on here from the supposed sufferers under the Patriot Act. A basic duty of our nation under the Constitution is &#8220rovide for the common defense.” The enumerated powers of the Constitution deal much more with the military than any other power of government, the first power of the President listed in the document is Commander in Chief. Obviously the founders considered it the most important duty of government. Some not so bad guys who felt victim to American imperialism, killed 3000 Americans on the bloodiest foreign attack on our nation in its history. They were sheltered and provided a base to commit this slaughter by the Taliban, another group of not bad guy victims of American imperialism. Their deaths make America safer. Every drone attack makes this world a better place and fulfils what the founders and their successors saw as the most important duty of government.
• I Wear Pants

  isadore;984633 wrote:The term totalitarianesque as applied to America under the Patriot Act is terminology of a dilettante at best. In a world with true totalitarian regimes, Baathist Iraq, theocratic Iran or Taliban ruled Afghanistan make that description ridiculous. People in those states would have no trouble providing an extensive list of their right denied or their oppressions suffered. I sure don’t see any long list on here from the supposed sufferers under the Patriot Act. A basic duty of our nation under the Constitution is &#8220rovide for the common defense.” The enumerated powers of the Constitution deal much more with the military than any other power of government, the first power of the President listed in the document is Commander in Chief. Obviously the founders considered it the most important duty of government. Some not so bad guys who felt victim to American imperialism, killed 3000 Americans on the bloodiest foreign attack on our nation in its history. They were sheltered and provided a base to commit this slaughter by the Taliban, another group of not bad guy victims of American imperialism. Their deaths make America safer. Every drone attack makes this world a better place and fulfils what the founders and their successors saw as the most important duty of government.

  http://news.antiwar.com/2011/03/01/nato-kills-nine-children-in-afghan-air-strike/
  http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/11/us-soldiers-killed-in-drone-attack
  
  I was unaware that the founders saw killing innocent children and US soldiers as the most important duty of government or that those things made the world a better place.
• isadore

  Protecting the lives of American citizens from non bad guy terrorists is the number one duty. I know you wish to deprive America of the protection of our drones and air attacks from these not bad guy killers. Drone and air attacks protect American service people obviously a low priority for someone who sees the suicide bombers and planters of IEDs as not bad guys even with the blood of American service people and the giant percentage of civilian deaths attributable to them.
• Cleveland Buck

  

  Have you ever explained how you want to pay for our never ending quest to rid the face of the Earth of every one of the evil, brown-skinned scum?
• gut

  Cleveland Buck;984642 wrote:Have you ever explained how you want to pay for our never ending quest to rid the face of the Earth of every one of the evil, brown-skinned scum?

  When you start crunching the numbers, maybe the solution isn't all that difficult. Granted the spending has spiraled completely out of control the last 3-4 years (not that the alarming trend didn't begin about 4 years prior), but if you look at "excess" military spending the last 20 years or so has to be a third of the debt or so.
  
  If we could attach a $$$ figure to lives of innocent civilians saved in our war efforts, my suspicion is most people would either veto the war and/or the excess spending to avoid collateral damage. If you attached that $$$ figure to lives of our soldiers saved, it probably would not be acceptable either (horrible as that is to say). Just saying wiping out cancer would be a tremendously great thing, but if it cost us $10M for every US citizen to do that it simply wouldn't be worth it.
  
  Washington has simply lost any concept of ROI and fiscal management. At least in that regard the fact they haven't passed a budget in 3 years is about the most honest and transparent thing they've done.
• believer

  

  gut;984648 wrote:Washington has simply lost any concept of ROI and fiscal management. At least in that regard the fact they haven't passed a budget in 3 years is about the most honest and transparent thing they've done.

  Sad, profound, and true.
• I Wear Pants

  isadore;984639 wrote:Protecting the lives of American citizens from non bad guy terrorists is the number one duty. I know you wish to deprive America of the protection of our drones and air attacks from these not bad guy killers. Drone and air attacks protect American service people obviously a low priority for someone who sees the suicide bombers and planters of IEDs as not bad guys even with the blood of American service people and the giant percentage of civilian deaths attributable to them.

  No no no, you just directly said that drone strikes that kill US soldiers make the world a better place.
  
  Why do you hate our servicemen?
• isadore

  Cleveland Buck;984642 wrote:Have you ever explained how you want to pay for our never ending quest to rid the face of the Earth of every one of the evil, brown-skinned scum?

  raise taxes on millionaires.
• Cleveland Buck

  

  isadore;984983 wrote:raise taxes on millionaires.

  That will pay for maybe 25% of it at best. Where do you want to get the rest of the money?
• isadore

  I Wear Pants;984826 wrote:No no no, you just directly said that drone strikes that kill US soldiers make the world a better place.
  
  Why do you hate our servicemen?

  I prefer to give American troops the tools they need to fight the terrorists who want to kill us, you wish to deny them those tools because of your stated sympathy for their killers.
  

  I wear pants wrote: So we have the right to just run roughshod over anyone and they are automatically the bad guys for using gorilla/brutal tactics that are their only real way to fight.

  Their real way to fight, the brutal tactics you speak so sympathetically of include IEDs that kill and cripple our service people. Suicide bombers that kill our troops and large numbers of the civilian population. These "gorilla" tactics you support are the real mass killers in afghanistan.
  I support the troops, your opinion of them is disrespect

  I wear Pants wrote:Almost anyone can do it. I go sign up right now and I have a job. Don't know of any other profession or business that works like that.

  from the Are our Troops overpaid thread.
  I dont think what they do is something "almost anyone can do." I think the men and women carrying out the No. 1 of our government, defending us against mass murdering terrorists are exceptional, you obviously don't.
• isadore

  Cleveland Buck;984989 wrote:That will pay for maybe 25% of it at best. Where do you want to get the rest of the money?

  25% according to you
• QuakerOats

  isadore;984983 wrote:raise taxes on millionaires.

  Brilliant........ get a cookie.