Bill Gates and the Education System

• WebFire

  Prescott;700386 wrote:And the dropout rate. Personally, I say good riddance. If a person doesn't want an education, why let them ruin that opportunity for others???
  
  No doubt.

  
  Problem is, the ones that do get educated and get jobs have to pay for their sorry ass.
• dwccrew

  

  ccrunner609;700076 wrote: As for teachers years of service and implying they dont help in student achievement......BULLSHIT. As a teacher, I get better every year. You learn more and become a better teacher every year if you are willing to learn from your mistakes. I speak from experience by seeing alot of first year teachers, a teacher with 10 years experience is alot better teacher then a rookie.

  This is anecdotal evidence. There is no proof that a teacher with 10 years experience is any better than one with 5 years or 1 year.
  
  

  ccrunner609;700076 wrote:"raises have no affect on student achievment"......duh moron. Does the color of your car have anything to with gas mileage? Lets make statements using less then 4 degrees of seperation.

  Worst comparison ever. You just stated that teachers with more experience are better teachers, thus making them more effective when teaching students. So why are you fighting to keep your automatic pay raises if it has no effect on student achievement? Pay raises should be given to teachers that do have a positive effect on student achievement/performance.
  

  ccrunner609;700076 wrote:$50 billion a year on pay increases?.....does he realize that this isnt a huge number? There are millions upon millions of teachers out there.....that money is spread pretty thin.

  Do you realize that that is just one area in which money is spent? $50 billion on auto pay increases ALONE. That is a very large sum of money.
  

  ccrunner609;700076 wrote:For him to imply that class sizes dont affect learning just shows you how much he should STFU. He obvioulsy isnt that smart.

  
  Yeah, Bill Gates obviously isn't that smart. Right.
  
  Class sizes are only relevent, IMO, at the younger ages. High school and college students should be able to absorb information the same no matter the class size.
• Al Bundy

  dwccrew;700404 wrote: Class sizes are only relevent, IMO, at the younger ages. High school and college students should be able to absorb information the same no matter the class size.

  In high school and college I would argue it depends on the nature of the class. If it is strictly a lecture class and students aren't disruptive, it can be pulled off. If it is a more interactive class, you have diminishing returns after a certain size. If you have behavior issues in a class (I am referring to high school), class size makes those problems more difficult to manage.
• redstreak one

  

  I have said for years that waiting until kids are in their junior year to attend the local career technical school is a joke! I dont have the stats in front of me, but many kids that are not cutting it during their 7-10th grades seem to flourish at the ctc around here. Now, there are still many kids that don't cut it at the ctc either, but the percentage is small. Many kids I work with in jr high dont look at education as a stepping stone to success.
  
  We watched a video of the beginning of the unions around the beginning of the industrial revolution and then discussed it. I talked to them about child labor and asked what they would do, all of them said quit. I said if you quit, no money for food and shelter, and guess what they said! Yep, they would just stay home and get paid! I explained that government assistance didnt exist then, they just looked at me like I was crazy! lol Many of these kids like to work, they just dont see the benefit of education. I teach special needs kids in jr high!
• tcarrier32

  

  believer;700351 wrote:I'm surprised you managed to write thesis papers let alone finish college. Now you teach our kids. But hey, who gives a fuck - right?

  e. not only do you believe that a man who was dead rose from the grave, but you believe that he was an everyday effect on our lines. I'd rather ccrunner type trivial typos than admit to believing in a being that created original sin, then sacrificed himself to save us from the sin that he created. but hey, who gives a fuck, right?
• believer

  

  tcarrier32;700565 wrote:[IMG] not only do you believe that a man who was dead rose from the grave, but you believe that he was an everyday effect on our lines. I'd rather ccrunner type trivial typos than admit to believing in a being that created original sin, then sacrificed himself to save us from the sin that he created. but hey, who gives a fuck, right?

  You apparently are willing to settle for trivial mediocrity from those who teach our children. The fact that you are helps explain why you are ignorant enough to attempt a non sequitur and bigoted association of my religious beliefs to ccrunner's need for remedial English language skills.
• elbuckeye28

  dwccrew;700404 wrote:This is anecdotal evidence. There is no proof that a teacher with 10 years experience is any better than one with 5 years or 1 year.
  

  
  Actually research suggests that teachers tend improve with experience, with negligible gains after 15 years. I mean it is human nature to improve as one becomes more experienced, but like everything else, experience can only do so much. That said, if there is quantitative research showing improvement, then there should be a way to use that research(along with other factors) to make pay raise decisions accordingly.
• Prescott

  I mean it is human nature to improve as one becomes more experienced,

  There is also the possibility that they become frustrated and choose to go through the motions just to get their paycheck.
• elbuckeye28

  Prescott;700810 wrote:There is also the possibility that they become frustrated and choose to go through the motions just to get their paycheck.

  
  I'm sure that this does happen and can happen in any profession, but it appears that, in general, teachers improve with experience.
• I Wear Pants

  People love to bash Gates but the dude genuinly does a lot of good, especially since he stepped down from Microsoft to run his foundation full time.
• dokken

  I love it when people say we are lagging behind in educational rankings throughout the world. First of all, who does these rankings.....Associated Press, UPI, ESPN?
  
  And someone said this earlier, the US tests everybody. China isn't going out in the remote parts of the country to give some kid his "World Ranking Science Exam."
  
  Here in the US, we go pick these kids up with school transpertation, some who miss 75% of the school year, and force them to take the exams (Ex: Ohio Graduation Test OGT) And you know they are trying hard, haha. Plus we feed them a free breakfast and a free lunch. I've had kids who refuse to even put their name on the test. One kid said, "well what are you going to do about it?" And he was right, what was I going to do about it. Hands are tied, the student wanted kicked out, didn't want to be there anyway. This is 20% of a schools population. So basically we have some doggone smart kids, but we also have many kids taking some of these tests that are drug addicts, alcoholics, mental retarded, emotionally disturbed, special needs, generational welfare receivers, etc.
• Con_Alma

  dokken;701375 wrote:...
  Here in the US, we go pick these kids up with school transpertation, some who miss 75% of the school year, and force them to take the exams (Ex: Ohio Graduation Test OGT) And you know they are trying hard, haha. Plus we feed them a free breakfast and a free lunch. I've had kids who refuse to even put their name on the test. One kid said, "well what are you going to do about it?" And he was right, what was I going to do about it. Hands are tied, the student wanted kicked out, didn't want to be there anyway. This is 20% of a schools population. So basically we have some doggone smart kids, but we also have many kids taking some of these tests that are drug addicts, alcoholics, mental retarded, emotionally disturbed, special needs, generational welfare receivers, etc.

  
  Which is exactly why more money won't improve those conditions. Better teachers with better pay and greater resources won't make the formalized education system better.
• dokken

  Con_Alma;701376 wrote:Which is exactly why more money won't improve those conditions. Better teachers with better pay and greater resources won't make the formalized education system better.

  
  It's amazing what districts with more money are able to accomplish, but look at the environment in these accomplished school districts. (educated parents, no low income housing, levies that pass)
• believer

  

  dokken;701424 wrote:It's amazing what districts with more money are able to accomplish, but look at the environment in these accomplished school districts. (educated parents, no low income housing, levies that pass)

  It's also true that throwing money at low-income school districts does little to improve the quality of education in those districts. There are no easy answers but everybody's feel-good solution of dumping more money into low-income school districts is not only a waste of taxpayer money, it's a waste of time.
• dokken

  I thought you all would enjoy...
  
  Next Season on Survivor; Have you heard about the next planned "Survivor" show?
  
  Chris Christie, two businessmen, and three businesswomen will be dropped in an elementary school classroom for 1 school year. Each of them will be provided with a copy of his/her school district's curriculum, and a class of 20-25 students.
  
  Each class will have a minimum of five learning-disabled children, three with A.D.H.D., one gifted child, and two who speak limited English. Three students will be labeled with severe behavior problems.
  
  Each of them must complete lesson plans at least 3 days in advance, with annotations for curriculum objectives and modify, organize, or create their materials accordingly. They will be required to teach students, handle misconduct, implement technology, document attendance, write referrals, correct homework, make bulletin boards, compute grades, complete report cards, document benchmarks, communicate with parents, and arrange parent conferences. They must also stand in their doorway between class changes to monitor the hallways.
  
  In addition, they will complete fire drills, tornado drills, and

   drills for shooting attacks each month.  
  
  They must attend workshops, faculty meetings, and attend curriculum development meetings. They must also tutor students who are behind and strive to get their 2 non-English speaking children proficient enough to pass Standardized Tests. Each day they must incorporate reading, writing, math, science, and social studies into the program. They must maintain discipline and provide an educationally stimulating environment to motivate students at all times.  If all students do not wish to cooperate, work, or learn, the teacher will be held responsible. 
  
  They will only have access to the public golf course on the weekends, but with their new salary, they will not be able to afford it.  There will be no access to vendors who want to take them out to lunch, and lunch will be limited to thirty minutes, which is not counted as part of their work day.  They will be permitted to use a student restroom, as long as another survival candidate can supervise their class. 
  
  If the copier is operable, they may make copies of necessary materials before, or after, school. However, they cannot surpass their monthly limit of copies.  They mustcontinually advance their education, at their expense, and on their own time. 
  
  The winner of this Season of Survivor will be allowed to return to their job.

• BGFalcons82

  

  believer;701433 wrote:It's also true that throwing money at low-income school districts does little to improve the quality of education in those districts. There are no easy answers but everybody's feel-good solution of dumping more money into low-income school districts is not only a waste of taxpayer money, it's a waste of time.

  
  But, isn't it true that throwing enough money at problems indeed solves the problems? What have we sent to Haiti since the earthquake? How many billions? Let's check back....oh wow. The destruction and demolition of buildings is still visible. There is still no discernable improvement in their country. How many trillions have Americans sent to Haiti over the past 30 years in order to solve their poverty? Has it worked? Maybe they need more, eh?
  
  What about LBJ's "Great Society"? How many trillions of dollars have been re-distributed in these programs? Anyone been to the inner-city in any of the 20 largest cities in our country? How's that wealth transfer workin out? Maybe we haven't spent enough you say. Uh-huh. Maybe...just maybe...when you give away wealth then there's no wealth to be gained. Maybe if we teach people how to be responsible and accountable, then we'd get paid back ten-fold. But that doesn't make us feel as good as giving away money to make the problems go away.
• Con_Alma

  dokken;701424 wrote:... but look at the environment in these accomplished school districts. ...)

  It's all about the environment...the environment at home. It's more important than school district income or teacher skill level. It's everything.
• I Wear Pants

  Prescott;700386 wrote:And the dropout rate. Personally, I say good riddance. If a person doesn't want an education, why let them ruin that opportunity for others???
  
  No doubt.

  Thus is why we're headed downhill sometime soon (relatively) probobably.
  
  Way too much "don't give a fuck if they're dumb/poor(direct correlation)/whatever" without even bothering to think that the more dropouts and such that there are the worse off we all are. Having a higher standard of education benefits everyone. Why this is difficult to see I don't understand.
• Prescott

  it appears that, in general, teachers improve with experience.

  Things are not always as they appear.
  
  

  Way too much "don't give a fuck if they're dumb/poor(direct correlation)/whatever" without even bothering to think that the more dropouts and such that there are the worse off we all are.

  I give a fuck about the students that are in school to get an education. I don't give a fuck about disruptive immature delinquents who don't see the value of an education. It has nothing to do with being "Dumb or Poor". I see no good reason to punish students who want and deserve an education by allowing jerks to disrupt the learning process.
• I Wear Pants

  The idea is we have to get those people to care about their education and not be disruptive. A lot of it has to do with improving the environment these kids are from since that's a huge factor here. We'd all benefit from it.
• dwccrew

  

  I Wear Pants;701615 wrote:The idea is we have to get those people to care about their education and not be disruptive. A lot of it has to do with improving the environment these kids are from since that's a huge factor here. We'd all benefit from it.

  
  That would be ideal, but is highly improbable. You can't change people's attitude towards something, they have to do it on their own. The only thing we can do is show them the way, they have to follow.
• Writerbuckeye

  

  I Wear Pants;701615 wrote:The idea is we have to get those people to care about their education and not be disruptive. A lot of it has to do with improving the environment these kids are from since that's a huge factor here. We'd all benefit from it.

  
  By almost any measure you want to use, it hasn't worked. Yet we're continuing to throw billions down a rat hole and STILL expecting the rats to turn into bunny rabbits.
  
  This country needs to get a grip on reality. Start weeding out achievers and kids who are honestly trying from those who don't care about school per se into optional programs where they can learn a viable skill, and possibly do an apprenticeship. I'm betting if we had this available at an earlier age (start doing this in 7th grade or even younger), you'd see less disruption.
  
  The problem is that some liberal educator will cry elitism or some such nonsense, and claim that Billy isn't being given the same fair shake that Charlie is, even though Billy is a douche who disrupts school mostly because he's bored and doesn't like sitting and listening, and could care less about learning things from books.
  
  Now, maybe Billy is simply a douche who will never amount to anything or end up in the criminal justice system, but then again, maybe if he had options besides a cookie cutter college prep type system until he gets to high school, he'd find himself with an interest that would help him and allow others who want to learn, the atmosphere they need.
  
  Short of abolishing public education, this is about the only solution I can see that has a ghost of a chance of working.
• I Wear Pants

  I didn't say throw money at it. I just don't think giving up is a very good plan of attack.
• stlouiedipalma

  A lot of the folks here would toss the non-achievers out on the streets. Of course, they will bitch and moan about having to support them in prison later in life.
  
  I understand that it's not just about money. Successful students usually have good parents motivating them so that, whatever school they attend, they will become achievers. The problem is, what do we do about those who don't have good parents?
• believer

  

  stlouiedipalma;701649 wrote:A lot of the folks here would toss the non-achievers out on the streets. Of course, they will bitch and moan about having to support them in prison later in life.
  
  I understand that it's not just about money. Successful students usually have good parents motivating them so that, whatever school they attend, they will become achievers. The problem is, what do we do about those who don't have good parents?

  Arrest and/or fine the parents?
  
  In all seriousness it's NOT John Q. Public from Dover, Ohio's responsibility to cough up his hard earned cash to "educate" Danny Disruptive or Candy Crackhead from Cleveland despite their parents' apparent absence or indifference.
  
  While it is true that eventually John Q. Public ends up paying the price somewhere along the line, for those low-income kids who DO want an education, I say let Danny and Candy take their chances on the street.