I don't understand religion.

• CenterBHSFan

  

  fan_from_texas;603057 wrote:Religious people aren't alone in their ignorance, though. In my experience, the militant-atheist--typically young males who had some messed up experience with religion and now seek to discredit it--is rarely giving a honest shake at things as much as he is either trying hard to be a non-conformist or just flat-out being argumentative. Neither of those are really worth a reasoned response, so as a rule, I don't discuss religion with people who only want to argue or throw out 7th-grade platitudes (pearls before swine, etc.). For someone who earnestly wants to discuss and reason, though, I'm certainly open to discussion.

  Do you mean people like this? lol
  

  
  dont worry OP. its always a bit weird when you begin to realize the truth. im sorry but there is nothing more cheesy (hilarious cheesy) then someone taking about Jesus like he's their best friend (especially some of the more conservative posters, the ones who would cry if a middle eastern man got on their plane, yet go home and pray to one). People talk to themselves and act like they arent completely insane.
  
  Jesus was born in April, Christmas is a stolen holiday, BYAH!

• CenterBHSFan

  

  I Wear Pants;603285 wrote:I'm okay with people handing out pamphlets and whatnot if they are respectful of others. That's just them trying to do what they believe is right and helping others find the faith that they hold so dear and feel is important. But when you get pushy or try to use fear of damnation as your selling point I get a little angry.

  I can agree with that!
• tcarrier32

  

  CenterBHSFan;603288 wrote:Do you mean people like this? lol

  lol.
• O-Trap

  

  I suppose I can chime in on this.
  
  I grew up in a Christian home as well. My father was a pastor, and my mother taught the children's choir for many years. I knew the right answers. I knew how I was "supposed" to act, and I even did so most of the time, church or not ... and I did it for one reason:
  
  I felt like I was supposed to.
  
  Truth be told, I didn't believe in ANY God at all, or any non-physical reality for that matter. I couldn't tell many people this, of course, because my dad was "the pastor," and if it got back to people in the church, it would (unjustly, I might add) reflect poorly on my dad in their eyes. In my mind, whether I believed or not, I had to act like it, because I loved my father, and I would NEVER want to see him criticized or defamed because I happened to not believe what he did. Still, though, it gnawed at me incessantly. I would ask questions in Sunday school or even to some of the pastors, and I always got quaint, token, cop-out answers (such as the one mentioned in the original post, which I got several times).
  
  I went to college and I fell in love with philosophy ... metaphysics. I LOVED the notion that truth could exist apart from what could be observed physically, but instead be observed reasonably. I began to get militant about it, and I found a nice, anonymous outlet for it: teh interwebz.
  
  I went on a particular message board (called NationStates) and I would intentionally search out Christians, well-educated or not, and I would argue with them. I never got upset. I never called names. I tried to remain respectful of the person with whom I was arguing. The truth is, I wasn't looking to argue for argument's sake. However, I wanted to find someone who I felt could hold their own in an academic forum, and I wanted to see holes punched in it. In retrospect, a message board probably wasn't the best, but the logic I saw there was head-and-shoulders above what I saw on the Huddle (no offense, guys). I never came across anything that wasn't without major problems or appeals to authorities I didn't accept (an appeal to a supernatural authority over natural law, for example, was logically possible, but I had no reason to start believing it: Occam's Razor, if you will).
  
  I decided to go to college and major in religion, thinking I'd (a) come across the best defense of religion from people with Doctorates in it, and (b) if I could put to rest the best defense that religion had to offer, there would be no doubt in my mind that I was right.
  
  For the first semester, things were fine. I would occasionally argue in class, though I had to admit, even at the time, that the professors sometimes provided fantastic, logical defenses for a certain belief. I at least developed a healthy respect for them, as they were the first people I'd ever heard that seemed like they could indeed hold their own in academia.
  
  However, because my purpose there wasn't necessarily to get good grades, they suffered a bit, and I was assigned an academic mentor. He was one of the professors from the Religious Studies department, but he was also the Dean of Students and the Vice President of Academic Affairs. I was a little surprised that someone with so many hats had time to meet with a student every week.
  
  In any case, I did meet with him every week, but I found myself talking more about religion and faith than about my academics, though they did go up. At the end of the semester, I had found that I was enjoying talking to him. He respected my view, and he handled my questions with genuine care, not with trite little responses, but with well-thought-out responses that provoked me to think. It was so enjoyable that I found myself looking forward to Wednesday nights, when he and I would meet.
  
  Over the final two years of my college, I continued to meet with him. By the last semester of my senior year, I found that our discussions had made sense, and that over time, I had come to believe not only that a God-serving worldview was correct, but that I had somewhere along the line accepted much of the Bible as truth (at least, in the ways it is intended to be) and that I was a Christian. Not because I had been told so since I was little or because I wanted some mythical reason to believe, but because over the course of three years, I had come to be CONVINCED that there was a logical, rational reason for God's existence, and that the reasons for believing such were good reasons.
  
  I don't know when it happened. It wasn't some grandiose emotional experience or instant faith-filled inspiration. It was over the course of several years, and just somehow during that time, I had come to be a "Christian."
  
  I don't believe it's "just faith." That was one of the big cop-out answers I'd had from one of the pastors at my old church. I am more of the persuasion shared with an old friend of mine, a pastor from Warsaw, Indiana. His name is Kondo Simfukwe. He borrows shamelessly from Greek philosophy, and doing so, he says:
  

  The unexamined life is ... often referred to as 'faith' by many Christians.

  The truth is, I am only a Christian today because I was engaged with the validity of it over time, through genuine relationship, and on terms I accepted. He didn't spout the Bible to me, or any Josh McDowell or Lee Strobel. He used people like Albert Camus, Edmund Husserl, and even Carl Sagan. Then he showed that he could actually reason for himself in our discussions. THAT was what was so refreshing to me. No regurgitating anything from Answers In Genesis (in fact, he wasn't even a young-earth creationist). Answers that showed he had been thoughtful on the same questions I was asking ... and had refused to accept trite, Sunday-school-esque answers.
  
  That man was Dr. David Plaster. His character was almost irreproachable. His love for learning was undeniable (the man spoke 7 languages fluently, for example). His kindness was unusual. He was, in my opinion, the perfect example of who a person should be. Hard working, always learning, and showing an abnormal understanding and love for others ... all because it was his duty as a human being.
  
  Dr. Plaster left this world in March of 2010. I had a really rough time, and I attended his funeral in Columbus, where he had been the pastor for the Columbus Grace Brethren Church for about a year (after he left the college). He was an amazing man, and I owe much of my worldview to him. Ultimately, God has really helped me believe, resolutely, what I do. But God used him to reach me, and Dr. Plaster did his work well.
  
  I have no doubt that upon passing away, he was greeted by the words "Well done, my good and faithful servant." I miss him, and I try to carry on in a way that would make him proud, which means that whatever truth is, I should pursue it. However, he also showed me that a strong, thoughtful, intellectual mind can arrive at Christ-centered worldview.
  
  Sorry that was so long, and I'm sure at least one of you will give the stereotypical "tl:dr" response (Prick! ). I just thought it an appropriate time to share my story.
• HitsRus

  

  The OP said:

  I don't understand religion.

  ...and he doesn't.
  Religion is dogma, rituals, doctrine...a system, an institution....that if it doesn't promote the search for one's own spirtuality, becomes an obstacle and a hindrance.
  
  As FFT said in an earlier post, God/The Creator either exists or he doesn't.....
  If he does, then religion can become a vehicle, by which one finds a connection/relation to himself and God and his universe. I believe there are many ways to find this, many contexts to which one can find oneself in God, and because a system of rituals doesn't perfectly aid you in your search, doesn't mean that it can't be right for another. We are all on our own journey.
  
  The OP is concerned that despite following prescribed rituals, bad things still happen to 'good people'....that's because the rituals are not about having a perfect, stress free, wonderful life....it's about your journey.
• O-Trap

  

  Bad things happen because, well, natural law dictates that they can. If everything that could be bad for me (both things I do and don't have control over), then my life is being determined for me. I have no say. I become a slave of sorts, as I am without any right to actually do or experience anything without being led into it by someone or something else.
• Writerbuckeye

  

  O-Trap;603488 wrote:I suppose I can chime in on this.
  
  I grew up in a Christian home as well. My father was a pastor, and my mother taught the children's choir for many years. I knew the right answers. I knew how I was "supposed" to act, and I even did so most of the time, church or not ... and I did it for one reason:
  
  I felt like I was supposed to.
  
  Truth be told, I didn't believe in ANY God at all, or any non-physical reality for that matter. I couldn't tell many people this, of course, because my dad was "the pastor," and if it got back to people in the church, it would (unjustly, I might add) reflect poorly on my dad in their eyes. In my mind, whether I believed or not, I had to act like it, because I loved my father, and I would NEVER want to see him criticized or defamed because I happened to not believe what he did. Still, though, it gnawed at me incessantly. I would ask questions in Sunday school or even to some of the pastors, and I always got quaint, token, cop-out answers (such as the one mentioned in the original post, which I got several times).
  
  I went to college and I fell in love with philosophy ... metaphysics. I LOVED the notion that truth could exist apart from what could be observed physically, but instead be observed reasonably. I began to get militant about it, and I found a nice, anonymous outlet for it: teh interwebz.
  
  I went on a particular message board (called NationStates) and I would intentionally search out Christians, well-educated or not, and I would argue with them. I never got upset. I never called names. I tried to remain respectful of the person with whom I was arguing. The truth is, I wasn't looking to argue for argument's sake. However, I wanted to find someone who I felt could hold their own in an academic forum, and I wanted to see holes punched in it. In retrospect, a message board probably wasn't the best, but the logic I saw there was head-and-shoulders above what I saw on the Huddle (no offense, guys). I never came across anything that wasn't without major problems or appeals to authorities I didn't accept (an appeal to a supernatural authority over natural law, for example, was logically possible, but I had no reason to start believing it: Occam's Razor, if you will).
  
  I decided to go to college and major in religion, thinking I'd (a) come across the best defense of religion from people with Doctorates in it, and (b) if I could put to rest the best defense that religion had to offer, there would be no doubt in my mind that I was right.
  
  For the first semester, things were fine. I would occasionally argue in class, though I had to admit, even at the time, that the professors sometimes provided fantastic, logical defenses for a certain belief. I at least developed a healthy respect for them, as they were the first people I'd ever heard that seemed like they could indeed hold their own in academia.
  
  However, because my purpose there wasn't necessarily to get good grades, they suffered a bit, and I was assigned an academic mentor. He was one of the professors from the Religious Studies department, but he was also the Dean of Students and the Vice President of Academic Affairs. I was a little surprised that someone with so many hats had time to meet with a student every week.
  
  In any case, I did meet with him every week, but I found myself talking more about religion and faith than about my academics, though they did go up. At the end of the semester, I had found that I was enjoying talking to him. He respected my view, and he handled my questions with genuine care, not with trite little responses, but with well-thought-out responses that provoked me to think. It was so enjoyable that I found myself looking forward to Wednesday nights, when he and I would meet.
  
  Over the final two years of my college, I continued to meet with him. By the last semester of my senior year, I found that our discussions had made sense, and that over time, I had come to believe not only that a God-serving worldview was correct, but that I had somewhere along the line accepted much of the Bible as truth (at least, in the ways it is intended to be) and that I was a Christian. Not because I had been told so since I was little or because I wanted some mythical reason to believe, but because over the course of three years, I had come to be CONVINCED that there was a logical, rational reason for God's existence, and that the reasons for believing such were good reasons.
  
  I don't know when it happened. It wasn't some grandiose emotional experience or instant faith-filled inspiration. It was over the course of several years, and just somehow during that time, I had come to be a "Christian."
  
  I don't believe it's "just faith." That was one of the big cop-out answers I'd had from one of the pastors at my old church. I am more of the persuasion shared with an old friend of mine, a pastor from Warsaw, Indiana. His name is Kondo Simfukwe. He borrows shamelessly from Greek philosophy, and doing so, he says:
  
  
  
  The truth is, I am only a Christian today because I was engaged with the validity of it over time, through genuine relationship, and on terms I accepted. He didn't spout the Bible to me, or any Josh McDowell or Lee Strobel. He used people like Albert Camus, Edmund Husserl, and even Carl Sagan. Then he showed that he could actually reason for himself in our discussions. THAT was what was so refreshing to me. No regurgitating anything from Answers In Genesis (in fact, he wasn't even a young-earth creationist). Answers that showed he had been thoughtful on the same questions I was asking ... and had refused to accept trite, Sunday-school-esque answers.
  
  That man was Dr. David Plaster. His character was almost irreproachable. His love for learning was undeniable (the man spoke 7 languages fluently, for example). His kindness was unusual. He was, in my opinion, the perfect example of who a person should be. Hard working, always learning, and showing an abnormal understanding and love for others ... all because it was his duty as a human being.
  
  Dr. Plaster left this world in March of 2010. I had a really rough time, and I attended his funeral in Columbus, where he had been the pastor for the Columbus Grace Brethren Church for about a year (after he left the college). He was an amazing man, and I owe much of my worldview to him. Ultimately, God has really helped me believe, resolutely, what I do. But God used him to reach me, and Dr. Plaster did his work well.
  
  I have no doubt that upon passing away, he was greeted by the words "Well done, my good and faithful servant." I miss him, and I try to carry on in a way that would make him proud, which means that whatever truth is, I should pursue it. However, he also showed me that a strong, thoughtful, intellectual mind can arrive at Christ-centered worldview.
  
  Sorry that was so long, and I'm sure at least one of you will give the stereotypical "tl:dr" response (Prick! ). I just thought it an appropriate time to share my story.

  
  Thanks for sharing this. It's a good story and should be told often.
• ernest_t_bass

  

  I enjoyed reading that, Otrap. Refreshing.
• I Wear Pants

  O-Trap;603488 wrote: He was an amazing man, and I owe much of my worldview to him. Ultimately, God has really helped me believe, resolutely, what I do. But God used him to reach me, and Dr. Plaster did his work well.
  
  Sorry that was so long, and I'm sure at least one of you will give the stereotypical "tl:dr" response (Prick! ). I just thought it an appropriate time to share my story.

  Before anyone freaks out, O-Trap, that was a nice post and this is a joke:
  
  I'm not going to tl:dr you, but I will at what I bolded.
• O-Trap

  

  I Wear Pants;603711 wrote:Before anyone freaks out, O-Trap, that was a nice post and this is a joke:
  
  I'm not going to tl:dr you, but I will at what I bolded.

  
  Damn. I don't get it. *kicks a rock and pouts*
• I Wear Pants

  It's a (admittedly poor) joke trying to say that he "reached" you a la the priest scandals that we always hear about.
• O-Trap

  

  Ah. If he'd been a priest, I would have gotten it. My bad.
• believer

  

  O-Trap;603488 wrote:I have no doubt that upon passing away, he was greeted by the words "Well done, my good and faithful servant." I miss him, and I try to carry on in a way that would make him proud, which means that whatever truth is, I should pursue it. However, he also showed me that a strong, thoughtful, intellectual mind can arrive at Christ-centered worldview.

  Great post O-trap. There was a time when I also struggled with my intellect - a mindset heavily influenced by daily cultural secularism - and my own nagging curiosity about the unseen "man in the sky." It is indeed possible to reconcile the two. This is a struggle that most if not all of us will engage in sometime our lives.
  
  I have no issue with those who choose not to believe that God exists since He made us all free-agents. The free-agency clause God gives us is the key to understanding what some call a "leap of faith."
  
  I cannot look at the vastness of the universe, the intricacy of life, the existence of good & evil in human interactions, etc. and at least wonder "was this all just a random, spontaneous occurrence or was it by Design?" I choose the latter.
  
  It's when those who believe we exist as some random act of nature attempt to squash and silence my right to believe in and publicly acknowledge the Creator of the universe that I take offense.
• HitsRus

  

  Originally Posted by O-Trap
  I have no doubt that upon passing away, he was greeted by the words "Well done, my good and faithful servant." I miss him, and I try to carry on in a way that would make him proud, which means that whatever truth is, I should pursue it. However, he also showed me that a strong, thoughtful, intellectual mind can arrive at Christ-centered worldview.

  That is powerful statement and sentiment....a confirmation of the apostolic nature of Christianity, that can only come from one comfortable in their own spirituality.
• ernest_t_bass

  

  Lowry, there is some different discussions on this thread that might bring you some insight.
  
  http://www.ohiochatter.com/forum/threads/4654-Christian-(Believers)-Huddlers...
• CenterBHSFan

  

  I think alot of people who have faith in God have at one time or another struggled with it. Perhaps even left it for awhile.
• BigAppleBuckeye

  

  I think God is like the owner of a fantasy football team: he has a general plan more or less, but ultimately its up to his players on Earth to make plays! I know this is a light-hearted view, but all kidding aside, I think everyone on Earth has "free will," and sometimes bad people do bad things, which God has no control over.
  
  I was very non-religious growing up, and have become more religious of late (I am 35). My father is an atheist, and we banter on occasion, and I ask him: what is MORE plausible -- the fact that everything on Earth, or even the universe, happened by sheer coincidence (whether you believe in the big bang, evolution, etc), or the fact that there HAD to be a starting point somewhere, with some entity (God?) spearheading this?
• FatHobbit

  

  BigAppleBuckeye;603995 wrote:what is MORE plausible -- the fact that everything on Earth, or even the universe, happened by sheer coincidence (whether you believe in the big bang, evolution, etc), or the fact that there HAD to be a starting point somewhere, with some entity (God?) spearheading this?

  
  The problem I have with that question, if something HAD to have created everything, what created that something?
• BigAppleBuckeye

  

  FatHobbit;603997 wrote:The problem I have with that question, if something HAD to have created everything, what created that something?

  
  That is a GREAT question FatHobbit, one that boggles my mind all the time. If there is a starting point, what existed before that starting point? Even "nothing" is something, you know?
• ernest_t_bass

  

  What if that something created us through evolution?
• FatHobbit

  

  ernest_t_bass;604013 wrote:What if that something created us through evolution?

  
  I can absolutely envision a creator using evolution as a tool to create us. And if we asked that creator where we came from, and he showed us an ameoba I don't see any reason why we wouldn't think it was dirt. (or dust or whatever)
• dlazz

  [video=youtube;MeSSwKffj9o][/video]
• fan_from_texas

  BigAppleBuckeye;603998 wrote:That is a GREAT question FatHobbit, one that boggles my mind all the time. If there is a starting point, what existed before that starting point? Even "nothing" is something, you know?

  
  That's the general argument for the existence of a creator-god as some sort of Aristotelian "first mover,"--God is often defined as the uncaused cause, the unmoved mover, etc.
• FatHobbit

  

  fan_from_texas;604036 wrote:That's the general argument for the existence of a creator-god as some sort of Aristotelian "first mover,"--God is often defined as the uncaused cause, the unmoved mover, etc.

  
  If the creator can always have been here, I don't see any reason everything couldn't have always been here. Maybe it is always changing, but it just doesn't make sense to me that the explanation for what started everything (because there HAS to be a beginning) is that there was just one omnipotent everlasting creator. I'm not saying there isn't a creator, but it just seems like an odd argument (to me anyway) for where everything came from.
• Writerbuckeye

  

  George Carlin came across as a very bitter, angry man right before he died. Somewhere on his life journey, he lost that gift of humor we all loved, and became little more than background noise. A pity.