The Dream Act - Buying Votes The Democratic Way.

• BGFalcons82

  

  ptown_trojans_1;605020 wrote:Well, the laws of the Senate stopped it from being brought to a vote.
  55-41 the measure to bring to a vote fails.

  
  Best news of this morning
• ptown_trojans_1

  

  believer;605023 wrote:It may not be the "children's" fault but they are here illegally nonetheless. They should stand in line like every other immigrant who wants legal U.S. citizenship.
  
  THEN we must take proactive steps to curtail illegal immigration and secure our southern border to make that possible. In doing so the issue of illegal Mexican immigration will no longer a fucking issue.
  
  
  
  Good. Now let's secure the border.

  
  Sure, yeah. Just kind of hard to tell a kid to wait in line for a few years while they can't really afford to go to college (can't get loans) or really serve in the military. But, just is life.
  
  I agree on securing the border, and we are slowly doing that, but we still have a ways to go I agree.
• CenterBHSFan

  

  ptown_trojans_1;605026 wrote:Sure, yeah. Just kind of hard to tell a kid to wait in line for a few years while they can't really afford to go to college (can't get loans) or really serve in the military. But, just is life.

  So what? That IS life. Not that many people can really afford to go to college anyway, and those are Americans that I'm referring to.
  
  Perhaps it's just me. My heart can only bleed so much before I'm dead.
• ptown_trojans_1

  

  CenterBHSFan;605098 wrote:So what? That IS life. Not that many people can really afford to go to college anyway, and those are Americans that I'm referring to.
  
  Perhaps it's just me. My heart can only bleed so much before I'm dead.

  
  Yeah. I would have liked it passed, but hey now that it probably won't be, I'm not upset about it at all.
• believer

  

  ptown_trojans_1;605026 wrote:Sure, yeah. Just kind of hard to tell a kid to wait in line for a few years while they can't really afford to go to college (can't get loans) or really serve in the military. But, just is life.

  There are plenty of bonafide American kids that can't really afford to go to college so why should I shed tears over the fate of Mexican "kids" whose parents broke federal law to enter this country? Sorry...You'll get no sympathy from me. But then again I am among the eeeeeevil conservative white Protestant Christians who happened to be born with a penis so I suppose it's in my nature.
• ptown_trojans_1

  

  believer;605234 wrote:There are plenty of bonafide American kids that can't really afford to go to college so why should I shed tears over the fate of Mexican "kids" whose parents broke federal law to enter this country? Sorry...You'll get no sympathy from me. But then again I am among the eeeeeevil conservative white Protestant Christians who happened to be born with a penis so I suppose it's in my nature.

  
  Haha. Yeah, I get ya. Most of the examples used by the D's were not Mexican or even Latinos, but East Asian or from Europe.
  But, it would have been nice, a moderate way to slowly include illegals in the system and also add to our military and colleges. But, like I said, I'm not hearbroken now.
• cbus4life

  believer;605234 wrote:There are plenty of bonafide American kids that can't really afford to go to college so why should I shed tears over the fate of Mexican "kids" whose parents broke federal law to enter this country? Sorry...You'll get no sympathy from me. But then again I am among the eeeeeevil conservative white Protestant Christians who happened to be born with a penis so I suppose it's in my nature.

  
  I agree with you on this, so you should probably stop with the "eeeeeevil conservative white Protestant Christians who happened to be born with a penis" posts. I'm a liberal and wasn't really for this bill.
• CenterBHSFan

  

  cbus4life;605265 wrote:I agree with you on this, so you should probably stop with the "eeeeeevil conservative white Protestant Christians who happened to be born with a penis" posts. I'm a liberal and wasn't really for this bill.

  I don't know Cbus. I've seen you agree with conservatives wayyyyyyyy too many times to believe you're a full-fledged liberal.
  
  haha!
• Writerbuckeye

  

  Great news that it failed. Sometimes, the system actually works.
• cbus4life

  CenterBHSFan;605270 wrote:I don't know Cbus. I've seen you agree with conservatives wayyyyyyyy too many times to believe you're a full-fledged liberal.
  
  haha!

  
  
  
  Just shows how out of whack the current democratic party is.
• BoatShoes

  Writerbuckeye;595784 wrote:Even accepting that nonsense -- they obviously know NOW that their very existence on US soil is a crime and have known this in all likelihood for a long time. At what point do you begin to hold folks...many of them now legally adults...responsible for THEIR OWN actions?
  
  But that's not even the crux of this argument for me. The key to everything here is GIVING AWAY CITIZENSHIP to people who haven't done their due diligence to deserve it...and putting them AHEAD of people who have worked hard and followed the rules.
  
  The entire law is patently unfair as one portion of the same group of people (those who would be immigrants) is being treated far better than another if this bill becomes law. I'm no Constitutional scholar but doesn't that go against the whole idea of equal treatment under the law?
  
  Again, my main argument against this: it simply isn't a reasonable, fair and equitable way to determine who gets citizenship.
  
  Please tell me how you justify this to the thousands of folks who have been playing by the rules all these decades.

  
  First of all, you refer to Mens Rea as nonsense which in and of itself is nonsense. Second, you're saying that this particular segment of immigrants with a mixed legal status knows now that they have committed a crime and are here illegal. But, as I pointed out, they never really met all of the elements necessary to have committed the crime of crossing into the United States illegally. This particular group of immigrants, children brought to the United States before age 16, has at best a mixed legal status. The only one being unreasonable here is you and your ilk. You want to kick out people who knowingly and willfully and maliciously cross over our border at an age in which they can be held legally accountable for their actions? Ok sure, I'm with you on that. You want to militarize the border like the South and North Korea and prevent this from happening? Ok I'm with you on that.
  
  You say they haven't done their due diligence to deserve citizenship? Well it is not their fault that they were brought here illegally. There is no reason why their years living here shouldn't count towards obtaining residency so then they can indeed follow through with the requirements of obtaining citizenship.
  
  The entire law is not patently unfair. It would simply allow the years that they spent here to count towards obtaining permanent residency; specifically ones who want to lead productive lives in America. Persons who were brought here before age 16 and want to defend our nation or become educated in it can stay and have those years they've been here count towards permanent residency....if you don't want to be a productive resident, you have to leave still and do what you would recommend even for the productive ones.
  
  Your prescription not only is what is actually unfair to a small segment of immigrants who have done nothing wrong under principles of law accepted since the Norman Conquest. If they did what you'd ask, they'd have to leave, come back when they are 18 and wait 5 years just to obtain permanent residence and then citizenship. I mean, if they were brought here illegally there is a good chance that their parents and family members are not U.S. citizens and therefore it is very difficult for them to obtain permanent residency. It is extremely difficult. In reality about the only way would be to rely on the diversity lottery.
  
  It doesn't put them ahead of people who are following the rules because they intend to follow the rules and have not willfully broken them. This one small segment of aliens plays by the rules just like people trying to establish permanent residence.
  
  I can agree, if you willfully cross the border doing so knowing that it is illegal then fine you have to leave. If you crossed the border before you were 16 in a manner that was not willful or wanton and you agree to serve in the military or go to college, your years here can count towards permanent residency and ought to as you have no real connection to the country of which you are a national anyways. If you don't want to be a productive member of American society then like the rest of those who did cross knowing it is wrong then fine you have to leave too.
  
  It is one very small and very eligible group of immigrants. And, as a matter of reality, these immigrants who have been established permanent residents and become naturalized citizens for the most part overwhelmingly supported this measure and didn't look at it as unfair to them. What is unfair is for children to be brought to a foreign nation illegally by their parents and for those children to be raised as if they were citizens of that nation and to not allow those years to count towards establishing permanent residency.
• BoatShoes

  Writerbuckeye;602217 wrote:I've already said I'd rather they do nothing than pass this.
  
  How about we start by shutting down all the entitlements to illegals nationwide. If they can't get food and other services for free, perhaps they'll think twice about staying. This problem really began because we've decided to extend all the benefits of being an American to people who are criminals, instead of holding our ground and saying no.
  
  We need to start reversing the errors we've made, and make this country as unwelcome as possible to those who would choose to come here illegally...and as welcoming as possible for those who follow the rules and go through the process that millions of LEGAL immigrants have had to go through.

  
  I agree with all of this but how will this deter children under the age of 16 brought here under now ill of their own? They will be brought here anyways by their illegal parents and then they will suffer when they did nothing wrong. You sound like a liberal with your views towards nationality law. You're living in a fantasy world. There's millions of these people here already to which a reasonable solution needs to be applied. It's like liberals who want to get rid of all the guns but there's already millions of them out there. Some element of practicality has to be brought into the solution.
• BoatShoes

  BGFalcons82;604979 wrote: I agree with you in that state of mind shouldn't come into play, the elitists believe that what thoughts a criminal had in the past are certainly punishable beyond the level of the crime.

  Again, mens rea.
• BoatShoes

  believer;596022 wrote:Reasonable, fair, equal, and legal mean NOTHING to Dems who are salivating over the millions of instant new votes they'd receive from Mexican "immigrants" who have ignored U.S. law to be here.
  
  
  
  Justify it? He can't.
  
  It's an insult to the millions of Germans, Italians, Poles, etc. who entered this country legally through Ellis Island in the past - the ones who spent years studying our culture, language, and history - who eventually assimilated themselves into our society and built themselves fruitful lives here for themselves and their offspring - AND to the existing would-be immigrants who currently stand in lines at American embassies across the globe seeking legal American citizenship.
  
  This is not about racism, this is not about bigotry, this is not about eeeeevil white conservative American males being afraid of Mexicans "stealing" valuable U.S. janitorial jobs. It's about wanting Mexican immigrants to stand in line with everyone else to enter this great country LEGALLY.
  
  WTF is so hard to understand about that?

  
  This one particular, small group of aliens, children brought here prior to age 16 by principles of our legal system did not do anything wrong by the way that they came here...the are a specific population that is trapped in limbo in regards to nationality. Legal immigrants are not insulted by the proposition of allowing this one specific type of alien a path to allow their years in the U.S. to count towards residency. I know you're not racist or a bigot you're just not being reasonable in regards to one segment of the alien population that is already here. It is not fair, equitable or reasonable to not allow their years in to U.S. to not count towards residency when they did nothing wrong in their arrival to the states according to principles of law accepted by our justice system since long before the founding.
• BoatShoes

  believer;596022 wrote:Reasonable, fair, equal, and legal mean NOTHING to Dems who are salivating over the millions of instant new votes they'd receive from Mexican "immigrants" who have ignored U.S. law to be here.
  
  
  
  Justify it? He can't.
  
  It's an insult to the millions of Germans, Italians, Poles, etc. who entered this country legally through Ellis Island in the past - the ones who spent years studying our culture, language, and history - who eventually assimilated themselves into our society and built themselves fruitful lives here for themselves and their offspring - AND to the existing would-be immigrants who currently stand in lines at American embassies across the globe seeking legal American citizenship.
  
  This is not about racism, this is not about bigotry, this is not about eeeeevil white conservative American males being afraid of Mexicans "stealing" valuable U.S. janitorial jobs. It's about wanting Mexican immigrants to stand in line with everyone else to enter this great country LEGALLY.
  
  WTF is so hard to understand about that?

  
  This one particular, small group of aliens, children brought here prior to age 16 by principles of our legal system did not do anything wrong by the way that they came here...the are a specific population that is trapped in limbo in regards to nationality. Legal immigrants are not insulted by the proposition of allowing this one specific type of alien a path to allow their years in the U.S. to count towards residency. I know you're not racist or a bigot you're just not being reasonable in regards to one segment of the alien population that is already here. It is not fair, equitable or reasonable to not allow their years in to U.S. to not count towards residency when they did nothing wrong in their arrival to the states according to principles of law accepted by our justice system since long before the founding. If you want to militarize the border and prevent this mixed legal status from occurring by actually preventing this from happening well then I am with you but until then at best, this high toned rhetoric about 12 year old mexican nationals being some kind of devious international criminals is impractical at best and devious at worst.