Arizona "Ethnic Studies" Ban

• cbus4life

  http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/05/12/arizona-ethnic-studies-la_n_572864.html
  
  Thoughts?
  
  Not surprising, i guess, but can't say i'm terribly happy.
  
  I don't see how this has anything to do with stopping "illegal immigration," or anything of the like, so not sure how she can justify it. Since when is the teaching of ethnic studies a bad thing?
  
  Students were taking advantage of it. Sounds like the program in Tucson was really impressive. Why get rid of something that is actually working and making a difference in the students' experience at school?
  
  Just don't understand this move.
  
  I can understand the previous bill, but this one makes absolutely zero sense, IMO.
• ts1227

  

  Though I'm not a fan of their immigration bill in how it works specifically, I at least understand wanting to keep illegal citizens out and being proactive there.
  
  But, this issue basically is trying to make it so they don't even acknowledge other countries exist, or have ever existed.
  You can easily offer these courses without them "promoting resentment" (if that assertion is even true) and they will be quite good and useful.
• Al Bundy

  I think they should be allowed to teach about specific groups provided that the classes are open to people of any background, and the teacher doesn't teach it in a way to show that one group is superior to another. I don't see it is as the place of the UN to get involved in the Arizona curriculum.
• ts1227

  

  Al Bundy wrote: I think they should be allowed to teach about specific groups provided that the classes are open to people of any background, and the teacher doesn't teach it in a way to show that one group is superior to another.

  Exactly. Set some curriculum standards at the local and/or state level instead of just waving a broad brush and saying "no one will leave this state with the least bit of culture"
  
  I would assume these classes have both Americans and Mexican-Americans in them, so I hope that would be reason enough to not teach with a slant. But, set standards to be safe.
• tk421

  

  Al Bundy wrote: I think they should be allowed to teach about specific groups provided that the classes are open to people of any background, and the teacher doesn't teach it in a way to show that one group is superior to another. I don't see it is as the place of the UN to get involved in the Arizona curriculum.

  The UN is irrelevant. There isn't a single organization more corrupt on the planet, not even our government is that bad. I've got no problem with states close to the border, or any other states, teaching about other cultures, but they shouldn't be teaching with an anti-American slant. This is just another example of what is happening and will continue to happen in the south because of the government's inability to control our borders. I fully expect this situation to get even worse. I wouldn't be surprised to see violence in the future.
• Mr. 300

  

  UN can kiss our ass!!
• iclfan2

  

  Good.
• Writerbuckeye

  

  Maybe I misread the story about this -- but it's aimed at eliminating coursework that is critical of other cultures -- it doesn't stop schools from studying them.
  
  Here's an excerpt from NPR:
  
  A fact sheet for House Bill 2281 gives the purpose of the bill thusly:
  
  Prohibits public schools from including courses or classes, which promote the overthrow of the U.S. government or resentment towards a race or class of people, and specifies rules pertaining to pupil disciplinary proceedings are not to be based on race, color, religion, sex, national origin or ancestry.
  
  The law has certain exceptions, such as for native Americans, for instance.
  
  This law does NOT stop general ethnic studies from taking place and was implemented because it was felt the coursework was being used, primarily in one district, against whites.
  
  I see nothing wrong with the law -- and think Arizona is getting a major bad rap on this stuff.
  
  http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2010/05/arizona_gov_signs_ethnicstudie.html
• tk421

  

  Writerbuckeye wrote: Maybe I misread the story about this -- but it's aimed at eliminating coursework that is critical of other cultures -- it doesn't stop schools from studying them.
  
  Here's an excerpt from NPR:
  
  A fact sheet for House Bill 2281 gives the purpose of the bill thusly:
  
  Prohibits public schools from including courses or classes, which promote the overthrow of the U.S. government or resentment towards a race or class of people, and specifies rules pertaining to pupil disciplinary proceedings are not to be based on race, color, religion, sex, national origin or ancestry.
  
  The law has certain exceptions, such as for native Americans, for instance.
  
  This law does NOT stop general ethnic studies from taking place and was implemented because it was felt the coursework was being used, primarily in one district, against whites.
  
  I see nothing wrong with the law -- and think Arizona is getting a major bad rap on this stuff.
  
  http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2010/05/arizona_gov_signs_ethnicstudie.html

  Agreed.
• majorspark

  

  Some of you people need to think this through a little.
  
  Take a quote from the HuffPo article.
  

  The measure prohibits classes that advocate ethnic solidarity, that are designed primarily for students of a particular race or that promote resentment toward a certain ethnic group. It also prohibits classes that promote the overthrow of the U.S. government.

  What is wrong with a state government prohibiting public funds for this use? Seriously who wants to defend this? Anyone? Please step up to the plate and explain in detail why this is an exceptable use of public funds. Please I am interested to hear a defense of this.
  
  I will make a few reasonable adjustments to this quote of the article provided by Cbus. Can anyone argue any difference between the original quote and the following?
  

  The measure prohibits classes that advocate white solidarity, that are designed primarily for students of the white race or that promote resentment toward non-white groups. It also prohibits classes that promote the overthrow of the U.S. government.

  Did we not find these practices dispicable in the American south? Which one you you guys thinking this measure is bullshit thinks it is wrong for Arizona to outlaw public funds for classes that promote the overthrow of the US government?
  
  Those of you who do not think there are those penetrating our southern border that have loyalties outside of our borders and have the mindset that the southwestern US is stolen land need to think again. It exists and we need to weed them out through legal immigration. The alternative will be nothing other than conflict. And yes absent of the rule of law, it will eventually descend into violence.
• CenterBHSFan

  

  ts1227 wrote: Exactly. Set some curriculum standards at the local and/or state level instead of just waving a broad brush and saying "no one will leave this state with the least bit of culture"
  
  I would assume these classes have both Americans and Mexican-Americans in them, so I hope that would be reason enough to not teach with a slant. But, set standards to be safe.

  
  I think the best place to learn your heritage is from your family, not your school.
  
  Schools will always teach world history, so it's not like they won't ever hear anything about other countries.
• bLuE_71

  Your heritage is that of an American citizen learn about it.
  
  So would a school such as Africentric be banned in Arizona?
• cbus4life

  All good points, guys.
• cbus4life

  The tenor of the law, that is ok, obviously. But the application of the law is what is worrisome. Tucson situation sticks out in my mind. Obviously, i'm not terribly familiar, but it doesn't seem to be deserving of the venom Horne has thrown at it.
• Writerbuckeye

  

  bLuE_71 wrote: Your heritage is that of an American citizen learn about it.
  
  So would a school such as Africentric be banned in Arizona?

  Is Africentric teaching its kids to hate white folks or talking about overthrowing the government?
  
  I seriously doubt it.
  
  I live in Columbus and think Africentric is a remarkably STUPID idea (not to mention unnecessarily racist). You can't talk about wanting racial harmony and trust between the races and continue to segregate youself from the mainstream, especially at a time when young people are busy forming the views they will hold through adulthood.
  
  On a totally different note: I'm curious where cbus got his original information on this, because it sure sounded like it was all negative by what you posted. You didn't mention the specifics of the law we did.
  
  I'm guessing that's because the news source reporting it made it just as negative (and seemingly outrageous) as you did.
• cbus4life

  No, not really, was negative because of what i read from the Superintendent for Schools in Arizona and his accusations against the school program in Tucson, and my belief that it wasn't advocating for or teaching what he claimed they were.
  
  And, as a result, i worried that it was a slippery slope as to what would fall under this law, despite what the bill actually says.
  
  I think you make great points, and like you and Major, i agree that, as far as the wording of the bill is concerned, i can't really argue that what it is prohibiting is a bad thing.
  
  I just don't believe that the specific example being used often, that of Tucson, is a program that is advocating one race over another, resentment towards whites, or the overthrow of the government.
  
  So, again, my negativitiy is towards Horne and this specific example in Tucson.
  
  My impression is that it is a really great program and should be protected just as Native American programs are concerned. It teaches about Hispanic authors, which have produced some of the great literature of the Western World. Not sure what is wrong with exposing students to that and taking it away.
  
  So, my distrust is towards Horne and his ability to accurately apply the measure based on the Tucson situation.
  
  Sorry for the confusion.
  
  And i just used the Huffington Post because it was the article on the subject i was reading at the time.
  
  And, i think the whole "UN Experts" part of the headline is absolutely assinine.
  
  So, again, sorry, the point wasn't to complain about the language of the bill, but the comments being made by Horne and my belief that he wouldn't be able to adequately apply the law in the right situation.
• Writerbuckeye

  

  Well, here's a pretty darned detailed view of the program (from a TV station no less...they did an excellent job on this). It sounds to me like the district had some legit concerns about how things were being taught. Notice the teacher/school bring in attendance and how they are trying to use that as justification for the program as much as anything. I find that disingenuous.
  
  http://www.kgun9.com/global/story.asp?s=12477521
• cbus4life

  Cool, thanks for the link, will review when i get home from work.
• redstreak one

  

  Has anyone picked up a social studies textbook from any grade in Ohio? Its very diverse and offers many examples of many cultures contributions to the American way of life. Teachers are not supposed to pass judgement or cultural beliefs on to their students, they are there to give the information in a way that all students can comprehend and make their own judgements on its worth and value.
  
  In this day and age you cannot allow a school district to micro focus on 1 topic away from the rest of society. I understand the plight many Hispanics, African Americans and Native Americans, man I hate saying those, but anyway , these things should come from the home and the community to learn, not the public classroom.
  
  Jesus Christ can be taught, he was afterall historically documented as living on this earth, you just cant put your spin on your beliefs to teenagers they are very influential and yes rash and naive! lol
• cbus4life

  redstreak one wrote: Has anyone picked up a social studies textbook from any grade in Ohio? Its very diverse and offers many examples of many cultures contributions to the American way of life. Teachers are not supposed to pass judgement or cultural beliefs on to their students, they are there to give the information in a way that all students can comprehend and make their own judgements on its worth and value.
  
  In this day and age you cannot allow a school district to micro focus on 1 topic away from the rest of society. I understand the plight many Hispanics, African Americans and Native Americans, man I hate saying those, but anyway , these things should come from the home and the community to learn, not the public classroom.
  
  Jesus Christ can be taught, he was afterall historically documented as living on this earth, you just cant put your spin on your beliefs to teenagers they are very influential and yes rash and naive! lol

  I understand what you're saying, but i really don't understand what is wrong with teaching courses on Native American literature or history or whatever so long as it is done in a respectful, open manner.
  
  So long as it doesn't violate promote one race or another, etc., those types of classes should be offered. So long as they are open to all and the like.
  
  And, of course, i don't believe that this bill would do away with those classes, or i sure hope it wouldn't.
  
  And, in the case of Native Americans, i think it is intellectually dishonest to ignore what they experienced at the hands of the United States and other colonial power, and that this should be taught at the high school level. Some might not like it, but the fact remains that they were dealt with brutally by an occupying power and were forced off of the land that they occupied prior to the arrival of that power. Ignoring the imperialist tendencies of the west is wrong.
  
  Thankfully, there are exemptions in this bill in regards to the teaching of Native American history.
• cbus4life

  Writerbuckeye wrote: Well, here's a pretty darned detailed view of the program (from a TV station no less...they did an excellent job on this). It sounds to me like the district had some legit concerns about how things were being taught. Notice the teacher/school bring in attendance and how they are trying to use that as justification for the program as much as anything. I find that disingenuous.
  
  http://www.kgun9.com/global/story.asp?s=12477521

  Eh, i don't really see how it outright violates the law given what is said in that piece.
  
  Yet to see anything from the Tucson case that says to me that the class and program are doing anything that is against the law now according to the bill.
  
  Concerns...maybe, but not sure how Horne could accurately apply this law and use it to ban this program at the same time.
  
  Reading reaction and comments from around the internet today, i find it appalling that people are questioning whether or not "ethnic studies" belongs in our schools at all. Teaching about other cultures, as long as those classes are open to folks of all races and persuasions, seems like a wonderful thing. Can promote lifelong learning of a culture and people a student is genuinely interested in.
  
  I really hope this law stays limited to exactly what it says it is and doesn't start reaching into perfectly viable programs and classes. But, i fear that it is a slippery slope.
  
  Just don't want it to turn into anything perceived to be negative towards the history of the United States as being something that is "promoting the overthrow of the U.S. government" and creating "resentment" and therefore banned.
• ts1227

  

  CenterBHSFan wrote:

  ts1227 wrote: Exactly. Set some curriculum standards at the local and/or state level instead of just waving a broad brush and saying "no one will leave this state with the least bit of culture"
  
  I would assume these classes have both Americans and Mexican-Americans in them, so I hope that would be reason enough to not teach with a slant. But, set standards to be safe.

  
  I think the best place to learn your heritage is from your family, not your school.
  
  Schools will always teach world history, so it's not like they won't ever hear anything about other countries.

  I understand learning your heritage from your family, and agree.
  
  However, I see these classes serving as ways for people to learn about others' heritage. They're electives, so those in them would only be taking it if they were interested. If taught properly, I think the students would get a lot from it.
• cbus4life

  Bingo.
  
  That is my fear with this bill. I understand what it SAYS, but i hope that it is applied faithfully and accurately.
• Writerbuckeye

  

  I don't think most people have any problem with ethnic studies, per se. It's how the material is presented that makes all the difference, and that is obviously key in this case.
  
  However, I do have a problem with creating an entire and separate school based on ethnicity that purposefully separates those students out from the rest of the district.
  
  If you want to give kids a purpose and try to tap into things that make them go, how about magnet schools in math, science or fine arts as opposed to focusing on racial differences? Seems like a better use of school facilities to me.
• Belly35

  

  Is American enthic?
  If we are Americans then why study what we are not? I'm Irish but I don't require someone to teach me about being Irish Coffee, Beer drinking and pot of gold.
  
  [imghttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ehl6HeoQgb0[/img]