4 Dead In Ohio

• hasbeen

  

  Writerbuckeye wrote:
  
  
  
  The restraint of what was mostly very inexperienced Guardsmen in this situation was quite remarkable, given the abuse they took.
  
  

  The Unit who fired the shots were NOT inexperience. They were men in their late 20s, early 30s with 5ish years of experience and had been trained in riot control.
  

  Footwedge wrote: ^^My point exactly. And LBJ's daughters were never drafted either.

  I understand your point. But women weren't draft eligible so it makes your point a "duh." I see no reason to really bring it up, but I get it.
  
  It'd matter if they had sons who didn't get drafted.
• Glory Days

  

  pnhasbeen wrote:

  Writerbuckeye wrote:
  The restraint of what was mostly very inexperienced Guardsmen in this situation was quite remarkable, given the abuse they took.
  
  

  The Unit who fired the shots were NOT inexperience. They were men in their late 20s, early 30s with 5ish years of experience and had been trained in riot control.

  yeah, but riot control training back then wasnt much. plus they were in the guard, i spent a little time in the guard in an infantry unit and we did one day of riot control training in a whole year. granted we werent MPs(i dont think the ones at Kent were either), but i dont see them doing a lot of riot control training back then especially with the possibility of being deployed to Vietnam.
• hasbeen

  

  Glory Days wrote:
  
  yeah, but riot control training back then wasnt much. plus they were in the guard, i spent a little time in the guard in an infantry unit and we did one day of riot control training in a whole year. granted we werent MPs(i dont think the ones at Kent were either), but i dont see them doing a lot of riot control training back then especially with the possibility of being deployed to Vietnam.

  I'll take your word for it, but the general consensus was that these were inexperience young men when in all actuality they weren't inexperienced and they weren't young men in how we look at the term.
• bo shemmy3337

  SQ_Crazies wrote: Just walked by the site where the bodies were after the shootings a few hours ago.
  
  
  
  There is always something eerie about that parking lot at night, but tonight was just weird. Just some weirdo hippies sitting in the middle of them in some trance...fuckin' weird.
  
  I learned more about this my freshman year here than I even care to remember.

  
  
  All there ever is is fucking dumb ass hippies. I wish people would let this go. most of the people who dance and act retarded on May 4th in Kent were not alive when it happened. Just an excuses to act like a 3 year old. Go lay in the street some more and pretend that you are making a statement. Fact is no one cares what you think we all just want to run you the fuck over.
  
  I have been at KSU for 3 years now and I am so glad I got to go home yesterday. Worst day of the year by far at KSU.
• Glory Days

  

  pnhasbeen wrote:

  Glory Days wrote:
  
  yeah, but riot control training back then wasnt much. plus they were in the guard, i spent a little time in the guard in an infantry unit and we did one day of riot control training in a whole year. granted we werent MPs(i dont think the ones at Kent were either), but i dont see them doing a lot of riot control training back then especially with the possibility of being deployed to Vietnam.

  I'll take your word for it, but the general consensus was that these were inexperience young men when in all actuality they weren't inexperienced and they weren't young men in how we look at the term.

  and yeah i may be wrong, i wasnt there haha. maybe because of some of the recent riots before May 4th they had started doing more riot control training just to be prepared for this situation.
• HitsRus

  

  "God bless the radicals"....I think I just threw up in my mouth.
  
  There is blood on a lot of people's hands, not just the guardsman, and that includes your bless-ed radicals. When you cross the line of non violent civil disobedience and incite destruction of public property,... incite taunting of those with the duty to keep the peace and order, then YOU own more of the share of blame, than someone's policies you are protesting, who have no more than an obtuse, indirect connection.
  
  If a 'tea party' turned violent, and someone was killed, would you blame Obama and his national health care policies? Sorry, the blood belongs on the hands of those who incited the riot, with lesser blame assigned to the guardsman for not using 'enough restraint'. I wasn't there, so I can't judge for myself whether they used enough restraint....but I don't have to be there to know that burning buildings and throwing rocks can be 'inflammatory'.
  Let's keep our eye on the ball here. Innocent people were put at risk by these "blessed radicals"....risk that they didn't need to be exposed to.
• Footwedge

  ___Bad analogy Hits...I'm sorry. Health care violence is quite a bit different than drafted kids dying in a needless war. You are a a post graduate professional. Would you have given up your life dreams and fought in the jungles of Vietnam? Because the state ordered you to? Because a ping pong ball bounced to the top with your birthdate on it?
  
  Read a little history on Nixon and Vietnam. In his memoirs, the "radicals" that protested the needless death of American kids was the #1 reason that he "changed course" and a peace agreement was finally reached.
  
  If you don't want to read about Nixon, then google Robert McNamara. Would you be OK if your baseball playing son or sons were sent to die in SE Asia?
  
  Hypothetical question for sure. But 40 years ago, it was not hypothetical at all. It was real...and it was traumatic. Tens of thousands of American kids fled to Canada. Did those deserters cause you to throw up a little too?
• Glory Days

  

  Footwedge wrote: Did those desserters cause you to throw up a little too?

  actually, yeah.
• Footwedge

  bo shemmy3337 wrote:
  
  
  All there ever is is fucking dumb ass hippies. I wish people would let this go. most of the people who dance and act retarded on May 4th in Kent were not alive when it happened. Just an excuses to act like a 3 year old. Go lay in the street some more and pretend that you are making a statement. Fact is no one cares what you think we all just want to run you the fuck over.
  
  I have been at KSU for 3 years now and I am so glad I got to go home yesterday. Worst day of the year by far at KSU.

  So says a student that doesn't have to worry about being yanked out of college and ordered to fight a war 5000 miles away from the homeland.
  
  Maybe if you had a brother that came home in a body bag at the age of 22 you'd feel a little different.
• Footwedge

  Glory Days wrote:

  Footwedge wrote: Did those desserters cause you to throw up a little too?

  actually, yeah.

  I didn't ask you. I asked Hits. I want a straight answer from him.
• Glory Days

  

  Footwedge wrote:

  Glory Days wrote:

  Footwedge wrote: Did those desserters cause you to throw up a little too?

  actually, yeah.

  I didn't ask you. I asked Hits. I want a straight answer from him.

  sowry....
• FairwoodKing

  I was a senior at Kent State during the shootings. I had a right to be on campus. The National Guard did not. I hope that every National Guardsman who fired a shot that day rots in hell!
• Glory Days

  

  FairwoodKing wrote: I was a senior at Kent State during the shootings. I had a right to be on campus. The National Guard did not. I hope that every National Guardsman who fired a shot that day rots in hell!

  the protesters lost their right to be there when it turned violent. they should also rot in hell right?
• I Wear Pants

  Funny that we're doing it all over again in Iraq and Afghanistan.
  
  Although at least this time we're using volunteers. I guarantee if the draft started again you'd see protests just like you did during Vietnam.
• majorspark

  

  BoatShoes wrote: I don't know, one of the first things I learned in philosophy is that just because someone's a hypocrite doesn't mean their argument is wrong...but maybe it's harder to see how their argument could be right when it comes to war and they've never been a warrior.

  You are correct. I agree a "chickenhawk" has a tougher road to hoe. One point I was making was that tried and true warriors have more credibility in the eyes of the populous to drag them into an an unjust war. History shows that many of them were able to use that credibility to gather the masses to unjust conflict.
• majorspark

  

  Footwedge wrote: No Spark my use of the word "chickenhawk" is hard core and cuts to the chase. If the term strikes a nerve with you or any other chatterers, then my mission has been accomplished.
  
  It should strike a nerve and the more emotion elicited by using such a term, the better I feel. Sorry.
  
  It is not normal for any rational human being to cold bloodedly kill fellow members of his own species through the order of the state. Especially when the members of the state never themselves donned the uniform.

  Well carry on then Foot. I personally can't give 100% backing to a "chickenhawk" unless congress constitutionally declares war. At least it will be probable that somewhere in the mix of congress their will be those warriors that have had to pull the trigger on their fellow man in the cause of the state.
  
  I think you got my point. No one should be blindly followed into war.
• hasbeen

  

  Footwedge wrote:

  bo shemmy3337 wrote:
  
  
  All there ever is is fucking dumb ass hippies. I wish people would let this go. most of the people who dance and act retarded on May 4th in Kent were not alive when it happened. Just an excuses to act like a 3 year old. Go lay in the street some more and pretend that you are making a statement. Fact is no one cares what you think we all just want to run you the fuck over.
  
  I have been at KSU for 3 years now and I am so glad I got to go home yesterday. Worst day of the year by far at KSU.

  So says a student that doesn't have to worry about being yanked out of college and ordered to fight a war 5000 miles away from the homeland.
  
  Maybe if you had a brother that came home in a body bag at the age of 22 you'd feel a little different.

  Foot- you missed the entire point of his post. Good job.
• believer

  

  Glory Days wrote:

  FairwoodKing wrote: I was a senior at Kent State during the shootings. I had a right to be on campus. The National Guard did not. I hope that every National Guardsman who fired a shot that day rots in hell!

  the protesters lost their right to be there when it turned violent. they should also rot in hell right?

  NAW you have it all wrong. Let me attempt to explain the logic behind this kind of thinking.
  
  A Republican governor under a Republican POTUS ordered these Guardsmen onto the Kent State campus in the midst of over-the-top national left-wing rioting and chaos in that time frame. These left-wing agitators - many of whom were not even Kent State students - taunt, sling human waste, spit upon, and disobey the orders of the Guardsmen to disperse. Yet it's appropriate to want the Guardsmen to rot in hell for being on edge and making, in retrospect, a very bad decision under those insane circumstances.
  
  See how that works?
• Glory Days

  

  
• I Wear Pants

  Similar situation to the Boston Massacre. Terrible decision making but not necessarily made in malice.
• HitsRus

  

  footwedge...I lived those times and saw my rootmate enlist because he was #2. I saw a kid down the hall that left for Canada...and the kid next door starve himself trying to get underweight and get a 4-F.
  I am not nauseated by any of these people.
  It was strange and difficult times and I fault no one for doing what they did. But I am NOT going to absolve let alone canonize the radicals who incited the riot at KSU that left some innocents DEAD....that is what 'nauseates' me. Sorry, a just cause does not absolve anyone for the responsibility of injury when the line of non-violent civil disobedience is crossed.
  
  Iknew some 'radicals' too. Some were NOT people with pure intentions.
• Swamp Fox

  It was a terribly unfortunate day for all of us. I'm not so sure we should just sweep it under the rug and forget it, however. I still adhere to that old maxim that a person who doesn't learn from history is condemned to repeat the mistakes of the past. I think an appropriate remembrance of this tragic situation is not a bad idea. I agree however, that the event should be remembered with a hope that reason and rationality should be the lesson learned. Demonstrations that emphasize exaggerated in the street re-enactments of those horrible events are detrimental to the lessons that should be taken from that day.
• Prescott

  I lived those times and saw my rootmate enlist because he was #2. I saw a kid down the hall that left for Canada...and the kid next door starve himself trying to get underweight and get a 4-F.
  I am not nauseated by any of these people.
  It was strange and difficult times and I fault no one for doing what they did. But I am NOT going to absolve let alone canonize the radicals who incited the riot at KSU that left some innocents DEAD....that is what 'nauseates' me. Sorry, a just cause does not absolve anyone for the responsibility of injury when the line of non-violent civil disobedience is crossed.
  
  I knew some 'radicals' too. Some were NOT people with pure intentions.

  Good Post!!
  
  I was a naive and apolitical 17 year- old OSU freshman in the spring of 1970.I had veterans in my classes who opposed the war and veterans who supported the war.I knew people that had died in Vietnam and others that served and had no regrets It was very confusing and strange. I should have paid more attention.
  
  Classes were canceled for a few days because of the violence on campus and because members of the SDS were blocking the entrances to various buildings. No grades were given for the spring quarter. Everything was pass/fail.
  
  I also remember sweating out the draft lottery in the summer of 1970. I drew number 94, which put me at risk of being drafted. Some draft boards reached 125 during my time of eligibility, but the Columbus draft board, being so large, never called my number.
  
  Prescott's father is responsible for this post.
• SQ_Crazies

  

  Like I said, I've learned about as much about this as anyone could ever want to being a student here at Kent. And if you want to put the blame on those who pulled the trigger, then you're an idiot. It was a fucked up situation to begin with, but it never happens if some douche bags don't bring violence into their protest promoting no violence.
  
  Only wish it would have been those idiots that were shot and not innocent students who weren't part of the protest.
• Prescott

  I only wish nobody had been shot.