All Metro Team
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Dust_E_Roads
The point I am trying to make is that "the process" is whatever the voting coach makes it. If he/she just goes down the line and votes for DC's, then that is on him/her. Can't blame the Dispatch or timing for that.KSU55;1715869 wrote: If the process to select the team is in fact as outlined above, that is fine as 106 played out just as explained. I just think that is a myopic and narrow criteria. If the process is not that cut and dry and includes objective evaluation of the entire season prior, 106 is a glaring example a failure somewhere. -
Dust_E_Roads
Is this rule written down somewhere? Is the ballot pre-filled with the DC's name already in place?KSU55;1715869 wrote:
It pretty much works like this: District champs are 1st unless there are more than 1 or a head to head that overrides it. Then work your way down the district placement using the same logic. Many are no brainers, coaches vote when there is a dispute.
If yes, than it is a bad process.
In no, then the coaches are collectively allowing it to happen and they are to be blamed.
if the coaches need more information, who should provide it to them? Should the Dispatch sports editors compile research? Should coaches submit nominations? Should voting coaches do their own research, as I do before I head to the voting booth? -
wraith51
We get a list of all state qualifiers from the Central District in D1, D2 , and D3. Since D2 and D3 combine with other districts it's usually 4 D1 guys and 1-4 additional D2 and D3 combined. Those are the wrestlers we select from, coaches are allowed to speak up and challenge on either H2H, SOS, etc. Some weights seem pretty cut and dry, others require discussion. D1 usually knows nothing about D3 and vice versa and D2 seems to know a little bit about both. Problem is D1 coaches heavily outnumber D2 and D3, but with that being said most of us know enough about our own division to speak up and defend those kids but rely on other coaches to help us out in these meetings when there are H2H, otherwise we go by what's in front of us.Dust_E_Roads;1716084 wrote:Is this rule written down somewhere? Is the ballot pre-filled with the DC's name already in place?
If yes, than it is a bad process.
In no, then the coaches are collectively allowing it to happen and they are to be blamed.
if the coaches need more information, who should provide it to them? Should the Dispatch sports editors compile research? Should coaches submit nominations? Should voting coaches do their own research, as I do before I head to the voting booth? -
Tony MeadMy suggestion was for the committee to use the yearly rankings, between itc, boro and bucksman you can pretty much see the best central ohio kids in all three divisions. The rankings are adjusted all year long by who beats who. Each weight class will be boiled down to a small list of names that are clearly the better wrestlers, along with the kids that may have won districts or upset one of the top kids. If theres argument or said coach is not in attendance have some h2h stats on hand, records, tournaments they wrestled and placed. Like stated above your not gonna pick the all metro running back for football because he had 120 yards and 2 tds in the playoff win, your gonna pick the guy that accumulated 1500 yards 20 tds and lead his team to a 10-0 season run. Everything should be based on the year/season/stats/facts. Not one tournament. Im not dogging the Dispatch. Any coverage at all will help the sport. Im not dogging the process. Im simply dogging the voters and lack there of information that the voters had. some of the coaches already commented they didnt have any of the information i provided as my sons coach wasnt in attendance. Sure his coach could take some blame, but you cant deny nor punish the stats my son accumulated all year. I voiced all this to the committee, just trying to avoid other kids being chosen or punished all from one bad match.
They voted against my kid all year, that dosent bother me, and his coach not making the meeting dosent bother me he proved who the best 106 pounder is in central ohio. So he is WINNING, what bothers me is his stats were not used in the voting process, as several of the coaches told me they had no idea. stats are facts you cant deny that.
Thank you all for your comments, and suggestions, cruiser has taken my suggestions in with open ears, hopefully some of the things can be adjusted to avoid this in the future. I have not analyzed the other weight classes they all look pretty accurate to me but I may break them down see if I can find any other differences. -
KSU55
It just seems the process is not understood even by the coaches. Just per this thread, some follow strict district placing with H2H only used to separate the divisions and others seem to infer a more broad body of work criteria.wraith51;1716119 wrote:We get a list of all state qualifiers from the Central District in D1, D2 , and D3. Since D2 and D3 combine with other districts it's usually 4 D1 guys and 1-4 additional D2 and D3 combined. Those are the wrestlers we select from, coaches are allowed to speak up and challenge on either H2H, SOS, etc. Some weights seem pretty cut and dry, others require discussion. D1 usually knows nothing about D3 and vice versa and D2 seems to know a little bit about both. Problem is D1 coaches heavily outnumber D2 and D3, but with that being said most of us know enough about our own division to speak up and defend those kids but rely on other coaches to help us out in these meetings when there are H2H, otherwise we go by what's in front of us.
Given how important many think Dispatch coverage is, and given the fact that this process warrants 30-40 coaches actually meeting for a few hours, it seems it would not be that hard to provide them with all the exact same information in advance. I can't imagine a small group of "stats" from local programs could not spend a couple of hours pulling records, H2H results, and some SOS information into a packet with criteria and distribute in advance to all coaches so they operate from the same information. Anyway...this thing has really exhausted itself by now. Have a great off season! -
ksig489The best way for another coach to know about a kid is for his coach to care enough to show up for the meeting and defend his kid. Regardless of what has been said...not every result is out there to be found. It never will be...we aren't basketball and football where they write an article ever time a kid moves his bowels. I can guarantee that had Liberty had a coach there, Brakan would have had his name in there.
There is another strange phenomenon that has taken hold over the years at coaches meetings where in head to head cases the kid who won the most recent match gets priority. I have never understood how a kid who went 1-2 against another kid is suddenly the clear cut better kid just because he won the most recent match.
Regardless...Transue beat Mead at districts (most recent match is now engrained into everyone's head)...that must mean Transue is better. Chase beats Transue in the district final...he must be better. Coaches vote between the district champs (who must be the best kids because they have the most recent credentials). Brooks wins the vote, (Chase and Fogle still waiting...no way Transue can get in yet because he lost to Chase...Mead lost to Transue so he is still waiting). Chase wins vote between him and Fogle (I think this was actually on a head to head as pointed out by Chase's coach who was at the meeting)...Fogle is a district champ and no one at the meeting knows if he has ever wrestled anyone else on the list so he is voted in at #3. Transue and a handful of others are left and since Transue had a win over the next kid on the list...he gets the nod.
Now...imagine if Liberty had a representative there to speak up for Mead. I bet the whole thing would have gone differently. Say what you will about stats, facts, opinions, or the price of cheese in Tokyo...the whole thing is fixed if Mead has a coach there to point out that he had head to head wins over some of those kids. Even if the head coach is busy, an assistant would be able to say the same thing. MANY times teams have sent assistants to represent their kids.
My 7 week old son went into the hospital this weekend and I still had the presence of mind and concern to call my assistant softball coach to have him represent us in a league coaches meeting the day my son went in. It really isn't a hard thing to do. -
Tony MeadThis is my whole point Bo, A coach shouldnt have to argue stats that are facts. wouldnt it be easier if 100 coaches wouldnt have to be at a restaurant on a Sunday morning? The wrestlers should not need a coach to be present to prove stats. This is not 1975 anymore! A email, A absent ballot, A skype, a facetime anything can be done to better this. You personally watched Mead destroy Chase at sectionals 11-1, I saw you (o: This wasnt etched in your head? I certainly watched Harrel! I am just throwing ideas out there that could better these situations and you all are just talking in circles! We all know how it works that has been stated plenty of times now, exactly your last sentence. It really isnt a hard thing to do!
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Tony MeadI am certainly not going to question, why our coaches could not be in attendance or why you had to call your softball coach. All that is irrelevant. What is relevant is the best kid got left out of the picture that proved he was the best kid all season long by defeating # 2 and # 3 heads up. You said it your self his coach there hes certainly on the list, so what is this saying about the coaches that were there? There are other ways to come to conclusions without you puffing your chest out and blaming coaches not in attendence.
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wraith51
For the most part the whole we do vote on the whole body of work it's just that sometime the only thing to separate is the district finish. Sometimes the criteria can change from weight to weight given the kids/information we have to go by. For example, kids have similar records, similar SOS, similar results against common opponents, and no H2H or a split 1-1 from the beginning of the year, but one guy finished 1st the other 3rd at district, you go by the result of the last tournament. Others may require further discussion (where a coach or rep comes into play), especially when it comes to guys in different divisions that haven't wrestled and that's where we come down to coach's vote. There was one a previous year where D1 and D3 had district champs at a weight but they had never wrestled each other, but when it came down to talking about the kid, the D3 kid had lost to the 2nd-5th place guys in D1 and one of the D2 kids during the regular season, so that weight the district champ didn't even get mentioned in the All-Metro.KSU55;1716129 wrote:It just seems the process is not understood even by the coaches. Just per this thread, some follow strict district placing with H2H only used to separate the divisions and others seem to infer a more broad body of work criteria.
Have a great off season! -
Dust_E_Roads
No one has a more complete compilation of a wrestler's stats than his own coach. (with the possible exception of his own father)Tony Mead;1716123 wrote:They voted against my kid all year, that dosent bother me, and his coach not making the meeting dosent bother me he proved who the best 106 pounder is in central ohio. So he is WINNING, what bothers me is his stats were not used in the voting process, as several of the coaches told me they had no idea. stats are facts you cant deny that..
The trail, no matter what path it takes, always seems to keep leading back the spot.....
Not to come off as a Dispatch apologist, but how are they supposed to make some compilation of stats available if they don't have them and don't have them regularly called in by coaches?
The Dispatch is deferring the voting to the Coaches because they deem them to be the most expert and, I am sure, due to the absence of any good central repository of stats and H2H records. If Track were used by everyone, it would feed Jakes and this wouldn't be an issue.
No "Stat Fairy" exists, so full season stats and H2H records are not going to materialize out of thin air. If all teams don't get on the same centralized program like Track (or some alternative), the same issue to continue to be a problem.
An alternative to the stat vacuum, would be a nomination process. Coaches nominate, with some criteria & stats, wrestlers for all-metro and coaches vote based upon the nominations submitted. Seems a heck of a lot more workable than expecting some centralized repository of full season "stats" to materialize from thin air..... -
ksig489Not puffing my chest out...just stating a fact...if Liberty had a coach there, this thread would have never been started or even necessary.
And...even if I had remembered that he beat Chase in sectionals...why is that my job to say something? That is HIS coaches job. And even then...I am one vote. His coach likely could have done a great job campaigning for him. I guess we will never know.
Do I speak up at times for kids...yes, but it is only when they competed against one of our kids and I can make an accurate comparison.
Please don't think I am attacking you or Brakan...I've always liked you guys. I'm not attacking your coach either...just stating that had he been there, things would have been different. -
Tony MeadI know your not attacking us, I am just trying to state some flaws, or areas that may cause flaws. our wrestlers do not need their results spoken for. For example Cruiser is the VP correct he knows everything about every one of these kids. It should never come down to your kid gets in if his coach is there or your kid dosent if he is not. It should never ever come to that. I feel that this all metro is based on Districts only and weather the coaches show up or not. This should never be the case, or it should just get changed to "Central District all dispatch team voted by the coaches", because in this case my son clearly represented his all metro area all season long. I am speaking up about this not to defend my son, but to defend other wrestlers that can be effected in the future. Just trying to make this a season long accomplishment instead of a one weekend accomplishment.
I as a parent, as a fan of the sport and as a ex coach can tell you top four kids at each weight class in EVERY weight class within a hour and have them laid out in front of you. The only argument would be whos first second and third if head to head didnt come into play, and if you guys want to base one single tournament off of that would be up to the committee or whatever. Leaving my son and my sons weight class out of the picture as a Fan I would like to see this not happen to any other kid ever. I dont need 30 coaches that show up or 30 coaches that dont show up to tell me this information, the kids tell me this information by their PERFORMANCE!
Leaving voting up to one tournament is wrong on so many levels. it dosent tell the whole story, when you come down to two good kids on one side at a district, one of them has to win and one has to lose, there is no alternative. Other factors play into that match as well with injurys and illnesses, but whats important is the other 40 matches thruout the year. These kids are not running for class president, it is not a popular vote on who had the best match the next to last week of the season.
This entire post is not about me ranting for my son, it is me trying to point out a flaw in the All Metro. If there is a better way, then lets find a better way. Simply put If i can do it better why cant you? -
KSU551. Create a simple nomination process resulting in a ballot of 8 wrestlers per class.
2. Send to coaches.
3. Coaches with nominated wrestlers reply with records, rankings, H2H vs other nominees. Could be delegated to assistant or "Stats" program. This would take little time (an hour at most) as each program would have only a few nominated wrestlers at most.
4. Aggregate into one file. Realize this would take some time (a few hours), but could be delegated to a program with some resource. It is just aggregating and formatting.
5. Send package to coaches with voting instructions.
6. Vote
All work from the same information so no ignorance of other wrestlers performance. No physical meeting taking up half a day I am sure. Publish coach ballots within association, only. Nomination and data collection can be done after sectionals and voting can be done after districts. Results could be done by Monday prior to State tourney. -
112in84
ksig489;1716294 wrote:Not puffing my chest out...just stating a fact...if Liberty had a coach there, this thread would have never been started or even necessary.
And...even if I had remembered that he beat Chase in sectionals...why is that my job to say something? That is HIS coaches job. And even then...I am one vote. His coach likely could have done a great job campaigning for him. I guess we will never know.
Do I speak up at times for kids...yes, but it is only when they competed against one of our kids and I can make an accurate comparison.
Please don't think I am attacking you or Brakan...I've always liked you guys. I'm not attacking your coach either...just stating that had he been there, things would have been different.
^^^^^^This ....attendance is required by a coach from the school if they want to nominate a wrestler....someone dropped the ball, if the main coaches have family functions , then delegate/send a young asst coach...and send the stats with him. -
Dust_E_Roads
I know you are frustrated, but please stop repeating this. It is NOT "left up to one tournament". The vote takes place after that one tournament, but a wrestler's full body of work is available to anyone who chooses to research it and for any wrestler who's coach chooses to present it. The Districts results are simply the most tangible, unbiased, timely, and objective data that is readily available. As ksig has pointed out, had a Liberty coach been there, this likely would not have been an issue and this deceased equine would be able to rest in peace.Tony Mead;1716313 wrote: Leaving voting up to one tournament is wrong on so many levels. it dosent tell the whole story, when you come down to two good kids on one side at a district, one of them has to win and one has to lose, there is no alternative. -
Dust_E_RoadsAnd I'd offer that 138 is a perfect example of the fact that coaches didn't simply vote in the District champs. Had they done so, LV's Martinez would have been second team instead of Demas. He wasn't. It went Brusco (champ), Demas (runner-up), Martinez (champ).
Lou isn't on here griping that Dom shouldn't be 2nd Team because he won state. I think he is pretty content with the state title.
At the time the vote took place, it was totally reasonable to vote Brusco in front of Demas based on the fact that he won the most recent match, had a great body of work (one loss I think), and the first match was close.
The primary point is that it is proof positive that some thought went into the votes beyond just simply punching the card for the District champs. -
KSU55
Giving up. I guess the process can not be improved after all. Keep requiring a physical meeting where individuals come with as much or little information as they choose, and let them argue and politic. Sounds great.112in84;1716573 wrote:^^^^^^This ....attendance is required by a coach from the school if they want to nominate a wrestler....someone dropped the ball, if the main coaches have family functions , then delegate/send a young asst coach...and send the stats with him.
ThisWeekNews public poll has an interesting concept. Provide a list of nominees. Educate the voting base by providing them with some common data. Give the voters criteria and vote...virtually. But let's not let the information age and the internet get in the way. -
wraith51
You have the same problem doing virtually as you do doing it in a meeting, only difference is you don't have the follow the leader mentality of seeing what everyone else is voting and vote with them. The association sends out tons of emails to get input on things such as ranking, nominations for the all-star meet, etc. and get just as much response as the physical meeting.KSU55;1716704 wrote:Giving up. I guess the process can not be improved after all. Keep requiring a physical meeting where individuals come with as much or little information as they choose, and let them argue and politic. Sounds great.
ThisWeekNews public poll has an interesting concept. Provide a list of nominees. Educate the voting base by providing them with some common data. Give the voters criteria and vote...virtually. But let's not let the information age and the internet get in the way.
Don't get me wrong, I get your point and in theory it is a lot easier to do it that way, but from my experience when I email out things to get input on teams and individuals to rank I get the same 5-8 coaches responding to me, and eventually I open up the discussion to the public to get more insight. Not to slam the coaches by any means but those 5-8 that do respond quickly also work in the school and typically have the time/ability to answer in a timely manner. -
KSU55
Understood. But you have two issues that need to be addressed by the current process. Ignorance...Coaches come to the meeting with an incomplete picture of performance because it is left up to them to educate themselves. Apathy...some coaches elect not to participate for whatever reason. A process enabling ignorance and encouraging apathy is likely to yield poor results. I am actually impressed that the results are as good as they are given how this done. It will never be perfect, but there are many ways to improve it from what I can tell.wraith51;1716707 wrote:You have the same problem doing virtually as you do doing it in a meeting, only difference is you don't have the follow the leader mentality of seeing what everyone else is voting and vote with them. The association sends out tons of emails to get input on things such as ranking, nominations for the all-star meet, etc. and get just as much response as the physical meeting.
Don't get me wrong, I get your point and in theory it is a lot easier to do it that way, but from my experience when I email out things to get input on teams and individuals to rank I get the same 5-8 coaches responding to me, and eventually I open up the discussion to the public to get more insight. Not to slam the coaches by any means but those 5-8 that do respond quickly also work in the school and typically have the time/ability to answer in a timely manner.