Central District Officiating

• Underrated

  Let me start by saying I no longer have a dog in the fight so this opinion doesn't come because I have a particular axe to grind. I feel I was able to watch the matches at Darby the last two days from a very objective standpoint. With that being said the officiating that I observed was very poor. There were so many bad calls I don't know where to start. I really have no idea what stalling is anymore. I sometimes I think the refs this weekend felt they had to call stalling in every match. There were several times the crowd or the coach obviously influenced the stall call. I know these men are trying their hardest but their hardest is not good enough in my opinion. Noah Holter hold your head high. For those of you who didn't see it he is a senior who was robbed in his 'go to' match on maybe the worst call I have ever seen.
  
  I know there are better refs out there but they were not at Darby. I have two questions. How they decide which refs go to Darby? How was the officiating at the D2 & D3 central district tournaments?
• lennyrox55

  Underrated;1394961 wrote:Let me start by saying I no longer have a dog in the fight so this opinion doesn't come because I have a particular axe to grind. I feel I was able to watch the matches at Darby the last two days from a very objective standpoint. With that being said the officiating that I observed was very poor. There were so many bad calls I don't know where to start. I really have no idea what stalling is anymore. I sometimes I think the refs this weekend felt they had to call stalling in every match. There were several times the crowd or the coach obviously influenced the stall call. I know these men are trying their hardest but their hardest is not good enough in my opinion. Noah Holter hold your head high. For those of you who didn't see it he is a senior who was robbed in his 'go to' match on maybe the worst call I have ever seen.
  
  I know there are better refs out there but they were not at Darby. I have two questions. How they decide which refs go to Darby? How was the officiating at the D2 & D3 central district tournaments?

  Noah and my son began wrestling in the 5th grade for Eddie Jaynes club. They really didn't take it too serious at first but the last few years worked their butts off to improve. They both had goals to qualify for the state tournament before they graduated. They are both seniors and lost the second match Friday. I knew it would be tough to wrestle back. They made it all the way to the go to match and were set up on the same mat back to back. I thought this was a great way to accomplish their goal. The old man ref had other ideas. He called the worst match I ever witnessed. He stole the experience of going to the state from Noah. I couldn't believe it. He stopped the match several times as Noah was getting control and then hit him with stalling with a few seconds left to tie the score. Noah earned a state birth in my eyes and should be proud of a great wresting career.
• It is what it is

  Heath was absolutely terrible! Inconsistent pin calls, ridiculous stalling calls, puzzling stalemate calls and unfair bias in questioning refs for "certain" schools!! A LOT of matches affected by the refs. :thumbdown:
• Shoot and Sprawl

  Underrated;1394961 wrote: How was the officiating at the D2 & D3 central district tournaments?

  I spent some time at darby and some time at heath this weekend. So I feel I can make a direct comparison.
  Darby was bad. Heath was worse.
  
  (and I also have no dog of my own in it anymore.)
• It is what it is

  Shoot and Sprawl;1394992 wrote:I spent some time at darby and some time at heath this weekend. So I feel I can make a direct comparison.
  Darby was bad. Heath was worse.

  The head ref stated himself that he wasn't happy and there would be a ref meeting...and scoreboards went out and table workers didn't start clocks or award correct points...worst I have experienced in coaching.
  
  And on a side note...the hospitality room was terrible!...ran out of food at 6:30pm the 1st day and limited choices and quality both days!! :thumbdown:
• GoldenBear

  I also no longer have my dogs in this fight, but the officiating was terrible.
  
  
  No smart-A comment, it was just straight up bad.
  
  The best thing I can say about it was that it was equally incompetent in an equal-discriminatory way. Rich, poor, black, white, "name", unknown.... The officiating was bad. Refs out of position, inconsistent, not knowing the rules, not being in control of the match.... I could go on and on.
  
  "It's not easy, do it yourself if you have a problem." It's not easy, but it sure ain't rocket science. I appreciate that men/women do it--but there used to be so many better refs out there. Where have Magnum, Feeney, Campolo, young Phil D gone?? They knew and respected our sport and controlled the match, encouraged action, while protecting the kids. I know where these men are and understand their lives have moved them on, but I don't understand why such a void in quality central Ohio officiating has evolved. I don't have a state-wide point of view, but I sure hope this isn't a state-wide trend.
  
  I don't do it myself , 'cuz I do not have time, but if I did I'd have the pride and self-respect and respect for the sport to do it right and be good at it. Furthermore, if I was a ref, I would have the dignity to oust the schlepps that make the rest of the refs look like dirt in the knowledgable wrestling fan's eye.
  
  Just venting, but this is important for the quality of our sport.
• cruiser_96

  

  lennyrox55: What happened on mat 3 in that first of a set of two matches was CRIMINAL!!!!!! I repreat: CRIMINAL!!! I saw those two at just about everything together. One thing that jumps out was that EJ Freestyle Club. Another was the Johnstown clinic with Brian Dolph. I've been a fan ever since.
  
  Too many conferences. Too many uncertainties. Also too many (what I perceived to be) "I want this to go this way so this is what I saw" mentalities.
  
  If you have EVER read any of my posts you'll know I'm a positive guy. If you've ever met me, you'll know I look for the best in just about every situation. So for me to say the above should mean something.
  
  The key: How do coaches, fans, and others fix it?
  
  Point of note: Not all the calls were bad. Not all the refs got it wrong. Some were spot on from what I saw. Others were delighted to possess the power to make a call. Unfortunate.
• hasbeen

  

  I'm always curious to know how many ref's have actually ever wrestled. Now, to be a good ref does not require experience as a wrestler. However, some refs would be better if they understood the sport as a competitor.
• like_that

  

  hasbeen;1395042 wrote:I'm always curious to know how many ref's have actually ever wrestled. Now, to be a good ref does not require experience as a wrestler. However, some refs would be better if they understood the sport as a competitor.

  
  There are a good number of refs who haven't wrestled, and they all suck. I'm sorry, but in order to be a good ref you need experience as a wrestler.
• cruiser_96

  

  AND ANOTHER thing... The way weigh-ins were conducted concerning the alternates was the biggest cluster that should have NEVER happened.
  
  Look. How is it NOT this simple. Weigh 20 kids in. Figure the rest out later. "You" don't think the alternates are cutting weight too!?!?!? To make an alternate wait until ALL kids have weighed in is ridiculous. I'm not sure what kind of degree it takes to run that sort of ordeal but whatever it takes, I'll pursue it. If it means better than what occured Friday, no prob!
• rassler

  Let's be careful here. I think it is a bit unfair to lump the performance of all the refs into one general statement. It certainly wouldn't be fair to say there was bad coaching (and there was some) and then assume that all the coaching was bad. I think there were 7 or 8 officials at Darby and quite frankly, the majority of the group did a good job. I would say there were 3 (and one in particular) that stood out for all the wrong reasons.
  
  Nothing is going to change unless coaches voice their concerns about the officials in question. I would start with the tournament coordinator to voice your concerns:
  
  Tournament Coordinator: Cal Adams, 943 Van Kirk Drive, Marysville 43040. P: 937-644-0167; Email: [email protected]. Conducts all drawings, supervises all tournaments, and assigns all officials.(contact info straight from the Central District Athletic Board website).
  
  Underrated, I hope that answers your question. Coaches, if you remain silent then don't expect anything to be different next year.
  
• Coach Geisz

  If you have an issue with the officiating then please sign up for one of the spring classes and become an official! Take your dog and get him trained!
• Cthelites

  Coach Geisz;1395080 wrote:If you have an issue with the officiating then please sign up for one of the spring classes and become an official! Take your dog and get him trained!

  I cant because I didnt wrestle...
• hasbeen

  

  Coach Geisz;1395080 wrote:If you have an issue with the officiating then please sign up for one of the spring classes and become an official! Take your dog and get him trained!

  
  Great response. Typical too. Coaches work hard and look to improve. Refs tell coaches to sign up for classes.
  
  Terrible post.
• hang_loose

  Shoot and Sprawl;1394992 wrote:I spent some time at darby and some time at heath this weekend. So I feel I can make a direct comparison.
  Darby was bad. Heath was worse.
  
  
  (and I also have no dog of my own in it anymore.)

  
  At Heath, I'm giving props to Refs Dave Bell and Mark Bowman.....They know the rules, in the right place at all times, got wrestlers back to the center of the mat quickly (out of bounds) and I know at least one of them has wrestled before:thumbup:.
• hasbeen

  

  hasbeen;1395116 wrote:Great response. Typical too. Coaches work hard and look to improve. Refs tell coaches to sign up for classes.
  
  Terrible post.

  
  And before we get the typical 'refs work to get better and some coaches are bad' crap, there are bad coaches who care only about the paycheck. They aren't coaching at the district tournament.
• pickaway

  The caliber of the wresters in the central district gets better every year... The officiating needs to catch up. Kids were literally robbed of their shot this weekend. Did anyone else see the blatant 4 second choke on mat one in the conso semi 220.... It was criminal! They also missed a takedown in the same one point match. Just one of many. These kids work there tails off only so these refs can decide the outcomes.
• bump_and_run

  first of all, what a great tournament! Not to be a downer because a lot of good could be said about Darby 2013, but just staying on topic here... so you guys are warned.. lol!!
  
  Most of the officiated was OK except for the typical inconsistency in pin calls, but you have that everywhere and always will.
  
  I did see the 138 go-to match referenced here -- crazy!! NEVER have I seen so many judgment calls go agasint the same wrestler, especially all the stalemates as position was improving??? and the stalling call with 15 seconds left was WRONG! The watkins kid had a front headlock and from what I saw was trying to bounce the other kid's head off the mat...just what they're taught. The kicker was the OT call -- maybe I blinked at the wrong time, but what I saw was a neutral position and then the Hilliard Davidson boy on his back???
  
  I HATE to see ANY match won or lost with so much controversy, especially one like this where a high-profile coach is involved. YOu know the "loser" will always wonder if that ref has a coach disabato poster on his bedroom wall at home or is maybe looking for a deal on a disabato camp for grandson?? and the "winner"? well, for him it's living with the suspicion that his ticket to the Schott was a gift and nothing won.
  
  In my mind TWO kids were victims here. Anyway, this thread is going to bring me down... lol. i'm finding something positive to comment on.
• legman1

  I was at Darby and witnessed this particular match. I'm going to try and look at this from both perspectives. (but it isn't easy)
  
  The official: He saw a wrestler that was up by 1 point that was "clamping on" and "pinching down" in the neutral position and in "his mind" felt was preventing the Davidson wrestler from being aggressive.
  
  The Reality: The Watkins wrestler in the 3rd period was in on several shots nearly finishing 3, but the official called stalemate each time. One takedown in particular the Watkins wrestler was finishing as the official blew his whissle and called stalement. Near the end of the match the official elected to call stalling and put the match in overtime.
  
  In overtime the official again makes a questionable call. A wrestler should not be awarded a takedown unless he is in control. Anything short of total control is considered a scramble.
  
  Some of these calls are judgement calls and when the same officials continue to make horrible judgement calls, they should no longer be an official or at least NOT officiating the most important rounds.
  
  A few years back i introduced a system that would evaluate the officials. This system would leave the lower rated ones out of the most important rounds at sectionals and districts. One of those rounds would be the goto round. This system was looked at like it was cancer and for obvious reasons. Some officials like to control where they go and don't like to be rated/evaluate, nor would they like being "that official" that must sit and watch the most important matches.
  
  The OHSAA has a rating syatem, but for anyone that knows how it works, it's a joke.
  
  I do however feel all officials do the best they can and work very hard. It can sometimes be a no win situation for these guys and they aren't making millions to do it. With that said, like anything there are some better than others and the coaches, kids and fans deserve the best officials in the most important matches.
  
  I will say the Darby district was loaded with very quality officials. However there are always a few that ruin the reputation for the group.
  
  On another note the Watkins coaches deserve some praise. How they handled themselves was very professional. Coach Hammond is a top notch guy that runs a very classy program. I would have been tossed from the tournament during that match without a doubt and probably worse.
• bump_and_run

  legman1;1395130 wrote: The Reality: The Watkins wrestler in the 3rd period was in on several shots nearly finishing 3, but the official called stalemate each time. One takedown in particular the Watkins wrestler was finishing as the official blew his whissle and called stalement.

  there was a lot of bad in this match, but THIS was the worst. What do you say to that kid after that match? He was improving position and the ref stopped it! THREE times! He didn't even give the Watkins kid a chance. Simply amazing...
• cruiser_96

  

  Just a question; no hostility involved...
  
  How does having coaches attend ref classes improve Central Ohio officiating?
• Power half

  cruiser_96;1395187 wrote:Just a question; no hostility involved...
  
  How does having coaches attend ref classes improve Central Ohio officiating?

  Maybe they want the coaches to teach them.
• MPhillips

  cruiser_96;1395187 wrote:Just a question; no hostility involved...
  
  How does having coaches attend ref classes improve Central Ohio officiating?

  'Cheeky' response Cruiser. Sincerity and sarcasm.
• Shoot and Sprawl

  cruiser_96;1395187 wrote:Just a question; no hostility involved...
  
  How does having coaches attend ref classes improve Central Ohio officiating?

  Haven't you ever talked to a ref about another refs bad call or read one of refman's posts? Clearly they teach how to talk a bunch of double speak for other refs bad calls rather than just saying that someone made a mistake.
  
  And before I get jumped all over. I understand it is a difficult job. I understand that some bad calls are going to happen. What I'm talking about are the same guys having the same problems week in and week out, and yet continuing to get contracts to ref bigger and bigger matches.
  
  
  I will say at Heath that there were several quality officials in the stands, and one was doing assesments. (though I was told he retired last year.)
  
  I will also say the head ref, Mr. Rooney did a nice job on the mat, but he spent as much time discussing some of his collegues calls with them as he did officiating.
• Maverick15

  I don't want to harp on this too much because to face reality refs will never admit they're wrong. Going into the Darby district I saw the group of refs and thought "well some of the awful ones are here, but at least there's two refs a mat and there are some good refs here. Couldn't be too bad." Oh how wrong I was. I will admit I looked through bias eyes with a certain. But two sets of parents of different teams around us caught onto a trend going on. It seemed that a ref, one I thought was a good one, had a vendetta against us. Refing five of our matches in a row and making plenty of bad calls. Three of the matches in a row were our kid against a kid from a certain school. Which is where the ref is from. He screwed up bad enough that people with no affiliation to the match started booing him. In another match he called a pin and the other ref told him shoulders weren't flat and he wasn't in position to make the call. I became very frustrated. Things need to change as far as officiating goes.