Ask the ref

• Fab1b

  

  Hey guys, Refman and myself along with any other officials would like to open a thread for asking the ref. Fire away guys, I will do my best to chime in when I have the time to do so. Refman I pm'd Justin as well, thanks for the PM.
• BearBoy69

  

  I just got an E-mail about an interesting situation here. At the CIT there was a kid that was illegally thrown onto his head, and split his eyebrow open. He got a concussion, and wasn't cleared to wrestle again by the medical person. In his 5th and 6th place match the kid in that match was not going to wrestle, and the coach insisted that the previous mentioned wrestler who got hurt should get the forfeit for 5th. They ruled it that he could not get the 5th place forfeit, and the coach would be suspended, because to get a forfeit a wrestler must be "ready to wrestle". Would you agree with that?
• Fab1b

  

  Really not following this situation. So by illegal you mean a slam and 1pt with 2 minute recovery time was issued? If that happened and the kid that was slammed didn't continue then he wins. So let me know how that match ended, the other kid either lost by DQ or won that match and later wrestled for 5/6?
• hasbeen

  

  I think what he's saying is the 5/6 match was between a kid who had the concussion and another kits who wasn't going to wrestle. Coach got suspended for sending his concussed kid to accept the win. He wasn't prepared to wrestler.
  
  Amirite?
• rassler

  Is there really such a thing as a "legal draping scissors"? Once there is pressure applied against the head or neck it becomes an illegal hold even if the arm is enclosed. How can a draping head scissors NOT have pressure against the head or neck?
• Fab1b

  

  pnhasbeen;1059836 wrote:I think what he's saying is the 5/6 match was between a kid who had the concussion and another kits who wasn't going to wrestle. Coach got suspended for sending his concussed kid to accept the win. He wasn't prepared to wrestler.
  
  Amirite?

  
  Well if the wrestler was showing signs of a concussion and the ref deemed that there only a medical professional (in FL only a MD or DO) could have cleared the wrestler to wrestle further and he would have have to have been cleared even to accept a forfeit. Now as for accepting a forfeit one must show up at the mat ready to wrestle in uniform, headgear strapped, etc...no forfeit should have been awarded if that didn't happen!
• Fab1b

  

  rassler;1059970 wrote:Is there really such a thing as a "legal draping scissors"? Once there is pressure applied against the head or neck it becomes an illegal hold even if the arm is enclosed. How can a draping head scissors NOT have pressure against the head or neck?

  
  Look in the rule book in the back in the picture section. Yes a scissors can be deemed a draping scissors. Not something you see often at all but there can be a draping scissors in the neutral position.
• rassler

  Fab1b;1059990 wrote:Look in the rule book in the back in the picture section. Yes a scissors can be deemed a draping scissors. Not something you see often at all but there can be a draping scissors in the neutral position.

  I have seen the photo. Notice that the wrestler's knees are also bent and it looks like casual contact instead of a scissors so in that photo I can understand, BUT I have yet to see a wrestlers scissors the head without being "straight kneed" and causing "minimal pressure" even if the arm is enclosed. A lot of officials are using the "enclosed arm" to justify a "legal" draping scissors and that is simply not the case because there is almost always pressure on the neck or head with a straight legged scissors. On multiple occassions this season alone we have had matches stopped in that position for Potential Dangerous without getting a point for an illegal hold. Now how can an official justify that call or lack there of? I have approached the table and asked for the ref's criteria on the call and they always say the same thing "he had the arm enclosed, draping scissors". I then ask why did you stop the match then? The reply, "potential dangerous". Not only do we not get the point, they also stopped a match when we are in a strong scoring position. Very frustrating.....
• Fab1b

  

  Whether an arm is enclosed or not does not change the legality of a head scissors. A head scissors is illegal period with the exception of a draping. Now in my 13 yrs now as an official I have actually never called a draping scissors. The only scissors to the head I have had and called have been illegal with or without an arm enclosed not PD and should never be PD as a head scissors is illegal by application.
  
  The draping would only happen when a wrestler shoots in and comes up between the legs. The wrestler has a very loose scissors hooked without being straight legged and hanging well off to the side. That would be the only exception and you very rarely if ever will see it. Again whether a scissors has an arm or not should be no bearing on the call! Hope this helps.
  
  This is draping
  
• BearBoy69

  

  yes you got it right on the 2nd post. Sorry i wasnt clear enough.
• Refman

  Bearboy69l...in that situation...there was a OHSAA state rules interpreter there as head official and he made the correct ruling based on NFHS and OHSAA rules.
• bendem

  Is it legal to wrestle with a leg Brace? if so I am sure must be wrapped how do you decide if it is wrapped enough?
• Fab1b

  

  bendem;1068082 wrote:Is it legal to wrestle with a leg Brace? if so I am sure must be wrapped how do you decide if it is wrapped enough?

  
  It would be deemed special equipment and must be approved by the official before the wrestler can use it. The official may ask for it to be covered, padded etc..and the official will deem it ok or not for use.
• GymLightCounter

  Hello Ref's - New question about fit for duty - I did not have anything on my schedule so I wandered in on the MSL's at Licking Valley. I noticed a ref that could barely (and I mean barely) get down and up from the mat. It looked to be a mixture of age and weight. Back points and pins were missed while he was carefully using a 3-pt maneuver to get down on the mat. Just frustrating because it meant the difference in some of the matches – and I assume it could have affected some of the team points as well.
  Is there a governing body that controls this? The kids deserve better than they were getting.
• Fab1b

  

  GymLightCounter;1091200 wrote:Hello Ref's - New question about fit for duty - I did not have anything on my schedule so I wandered in on the MSL's at Licking Valley. I noticed a ref that could barely (and I mean barely) get down and up from the mat. It looked to be a mixture of age and weight. Back points and pins were missed while he was carefully using a 3-pt maneuver to get down on the mat. Just frustrating because it meant the difference in some of the matches – and I assume it could have affected some of the team points as well.
  Is there a governing body that controls this? The kids deserve better than they were getting.

  Tough here though I agree with you as I know officials that shouldn't be officiating any longer due to weight, age, both, etc....In Florida refs are independent contractors, must join and meet a local associations bylaws, and be in good standing with the FHSAA. If they meet those demands they are booked for matches by their association. The problem will come from not complying with disabilities act, discrimination, etc....it is a fine line that associations and the State must walk here.
• Refman

  Gymlightcounter...one of the hardest things for older refs to do is to recognize when it is time to quit. OHSAA does have the ability to pull a license, as does Florida btw...or any state...if they deem a referee to be unfit for whatever sport they are officiating.
  This is straight from the OHSAA handbook for officials:
  Officiating is a privilege, not a right. Officials that are unfair or biased, exhibit a lack of fitness, fail to comply with OHSAA administrative requirements or exhibit questionable conduct on or off the playing surface can be penalized. The OHSAA reserves the express authority to suspend or permanently revoke any officiating permit.
  
  So...if you have video etc...that should be sent in to OHSAA and it will be dealt with.
• takedown20

  whats the reasoning for the no tape on headgear rule this year?
• cruiser_96

  

  One explaination given at the Coaches' Clinic was if the tape is covering the four holes, and the side of the headgear is struck, it could perferate the ear drum.
  
  Honest to God, that is what was said.
• takedown20

  So as long as those holes are not covered the wrestler should be good, correct?
• cruiser_96

  

  takedown20;1331363 wrote:So as long as those holes are not covered the wrestler should be good, correct?

  If that was the ONLY reason given, then perhaps. But it was one reason given. The gentleman also stated "worn as the manufacture intended." No tape connecting the front two straps. No reason for not allowing that other than "that is not how the manufacturer intended for them to be worn."
  
  It should be noted that in the instance of cauliflour ear, when a doughnut is needed, the committee has deemed that tape to be exceptable.
  
  :shrug:
  
  I don't get it. The crazier thing to me is the word "abbrasive" came up concerning tape on the headgear... Then, shortly after that, the gentleman stated connecting the two front straps of the headgear with velcro. Ever has velcro run across your face!?!?! THAT'S ABBRASIVE!!!! Whatever, dude.
• Jmar25

  cruiser_96;1332409 wrote:If that was the ONLY reason given, then perhaps. But it was one reason given. The gentleman also stated "worn as the manufacture intended." No tape connecting the front two straps. No reason for not allowing that other than "that is not how the manufacturer intended for them to be worn."
  
  It should be noted that in the instance of cauliflour ear, when a doughnut is needed, the committee has deemed that tape to be exceptable.
  
  :shrug:
  
  I don't get it. The crazier thing to me is the word "abbrasive" came up concerning tape on the headgear... Then, shortly after that, the gentleman stated connecting the two front straps of the headgear with velcro. Ever has velcro run across your face!?!?! THAT'S ABBRASIVE!!!! Whatever, dude.

  Mr. Vreeland was at our last officials meeting. The tape thing was discussed along with the decals on the head gear. This is straight from the horse's mouth....
  
  The holes must be poked out. Can be by a pencil or whatever. It isn't about hearing as much as it's about safety. The thought is that with the holes covered... It creates "pressure" system (imagine smacking your years with cupped hands) This is what damages the eardrums and is why there are holes in the headgear to begin with. That is why these holes must not be covered.
  
  Point #2... Decals... A coach/official said his team planned on honoring Mr. Mike Kailai (Spelling?) They ordered small MK decals made of the same material used for helmet logos. When asked if they were legal as long as they did not cover the holes, Mr. Vreeland responded with a no. It would not be legal. School logos only.
  
  Point #3... Tape... Yes on the ear stuff... the only exception is that if the headgear comes off in the middle of a match... It will be legal to put tape on it to finish the match. It must be tape free by the next match. The head gear straps made by Cliff Keen are THE ONLY LEGAL STRAPS ALLOWED TO HOLD HEAD GEAR STRAPS TOGETHER.
• said_aouita

  

  e58 or gtfo
  
  Only Mcdonough is allowed to tape his head gear. Everyone else must get a new one.
  
  
• cruiser_96

  

  said: Too bad those are orange.
  
  ps: We have 15 pairs just waiting for heads. But ours are black.
• dbomb9775

  I was wondering if you could explain to me about the stalling rule in wrestling? I go to so many matches and watch kids win buy just laying on the mat and not doing anything?? For a long period time ... Especially 3 period !! And also do you think changes could be done with stalling , plz explain thank u
• Refman

  Rules are pretty clear about stalling. My feeling is...I tend to look at the bottom kid first..if he wasnt the bottom kid...he would be the top kid or neutral
  
  I wrote a paper on stalling a few years ago titled " Stalling...its simple". Want a copy? Email me at: [email protected]