TAPPING OUT

• bonelizzard

  I have seen more kids tapping out this year more than the last 5 years combined. I have seen it both in the middle school and the high school. In 2 particular cases the boys tapping out, just before being pinned, came back to win the matches. Is the "tapping out" due to the MMA influence that these kids are seeing on t.v.? There needs to be some rule changes in folkstyle wrestling when a kid "taps out".
  Automatic loss? Disqualification? Opinions....
• Jmar25

  Right or wrong, if they are on their back, I call a pin if they are close. I take a look to see if anything is across the throat or something like that, then call the pin if I see nothing. Now I do take age into account. I do ref youth, jr,jv,varsity. So if it is a youth kid I'm going to stop almost immediate compared to a varsity kid who does my favorite thing ever and tells me he is being choked our makes crazy noises. I think common sense should prevail and most all situations are easy to be able to tell if it is something legit. But remember... If the match is stopped... Injury time should start immediately if nothing illegal has occurred. Bonus point if they are on their back and it is not a potentially dangerous situation. Also I don't want to see a tapout rule put into the books either. There is no need for it. So that is my take on it. Like I said right or wrong that is how I have handled it and have not had any complaints or issuea with parents or coaches yet. I'm sure someone will come on here and say safety first and lawsuits... I understand the fear but I have spent many years around the sport, still wrestle when I can, and always have safety first and foremost on my mind but I don't want kids learning or trying to cheat at the sport either. Ok let the bashing begin.
• bonelizzard

  Right or wrong, if they are on their back, I call a pin if they are close.

  Jmar, you're the minority because in all 5 cases Jr. High and Varsity no officials called the fall.
• Con_Alma

  bonelizzard;656239 wrote:Jmar, you're the minority because in all 5 cases Jr. High and Varsity no officials called the fall.

  
  If there's no pin it's inappropriate to call the fall because a kid is on his back and is tapping out. It's not a rules interpretation issue.
  
  Irregardless of what jmar does or has done he did in his response state part of the rule in that NF points should be awarded appropriately along with a bonus point. Although I appreciate jmar's rationale in his decisions regarding how to handle the situation I respectfully disagree with them. I don't want officials calling pins that haven't happened in order to keep a rule from being put in place so that a kid doesn't tap out for the purposes of keeping from getting pinned.
• Dad4Sports

  Con_Alma ...... I see where you are coming from. However I am 100% squarely in Jmar's corner on this issue. It's become almost commonplace now for kids to try to scam the system but screaming out/tappping to avoid trouble. I can't stand it. Right or wrong, if mores refs treated the situation like Jmar then maybe these kids would stop looking for a crutch and fight their way off of their backs.
• bonelizzard

  totally agree D4Sports.. what's the real lesson here?
• Con_Alma

  It isn't the issue I disagree with... it's a ref not applying the rule how it should be in hopes of avoiding the rules committee being able to do their job.
  
  I am guessing the reason a ref would call a pin when one doesn't exist is because he knows he is required to stop the match if a kid is tapping. The ref is also required to call a pin only when one exists.
  
  The "real lesson" is I expect a referee to uphold the sanctity of this wonderful sport. When he calls a pin when it doesn't exist he's as guilty as the kids who taps to avoid a pin in tearing down purity of the greatest sport in the world.
• Con_Alma

  It isn't the issue I disagree with... it's a ref not applying the rule how it should be in hopes of avoiding the rules committee being able to do their job.
  
  I am guessing the reason a ref would call a pin when one doesn't exist is because he knows he is required to stop the match if a kid is tapping. The ref is also required to call a pin only when one exists.
  
  The "real lesson" is I expect a referee to uphold the sanctity of this wonderful sport. When he calls a pin when it doesn't exist he's as guilty as the kids who taps to avoid a pin in tearing down the purity of the greatest sport in the world.
  
  It's kind of like chasing a bad position or justifying one wrong with another. We can do better than that.
• bonelizzard

  He would be "upholding the sanctity of this wonderful sport" by rewarding the kid who put the other on his back when the fall occurs.. Not rewarding the kid who is obviously quitting to buy more time. IMO
• Con_Alma

  bonelizzard;656292 wrote:He would be "upholding the sanctity of this wonderful sport" by rewarding the kid who put the other on his back when the fall occurs.. Not rewarding the kid who is obviously quitting to buy more time. IMO

  
  
  I agree...if a fall truly occurs. My issue is awarding a fall when one doesn't exist and solely doing so because a kid was tapping.
  
  There's a big difference between putting a kid on his back and pinning him.
• bonelizzard

  solution... new rule.. kid taps.. he loses.. period. imo
• Con_Alma

  bonelizzard;656301 wrote:solution... new rule.. kid taps.. he loses.. period. imo

  
  If that's what it takes, lets do it but the rule doesn't yet exist.
• bonelizzard

  exactly... MMA influence on kids and folkstlye wrestling.. time for change.
• monarchpride

  What about the case of a legitmate injury??? or pre-existing injury, am I naieve to think that there are kids who are hurt and a situation should be stopped?
• Con_Alma

  bonelizzard;656310 wrote:exactly... MMA influence on kids and folkstlye wrestling.. time for change.

  
  
  Most rule changes are a reactive measure to address style changes in the sport. Let the NFHS know of your concerns. These unwarranted tap-outs don't uphold the spirit of competition and the present the rules in place. if it needs to be addresses lets do so....but not by an official applying things that don't exist.
• bonelizzard

  monarchpride- yes if he's not flat on his back. imo
• cradle3

  Just let em tap all they want, if a wrestler wants the match to be over with, they can put their shoulders to the mat.
  If it's an injury situation, the ref(s) will be able to figure it out.
  
  no "phantom" pins. If he's not stuck don't call hit. the pinning wrestler has not EARNED that, yet.
• Jmar25

  Maybe I should make a clarification... The kids I call the pins on are extremely close...talking centimeters... A pin is tuely there most of the time. After reading the comments i realized I made it sound like they were just on their backs and left it open for interpretation.
  
  The kids or cases I'm talking about are the ones where They haven't said one word until they know it's a second away. Those are times when I become weary of the situation. I'm always talking to the wrestlers, encouragement, keep working, ect... When I hear a groan or tapout...ect... I look for any infractions.... If none are seen... I reassure the down man it is legal and things are fine so far. Most of which stop any complaing 9 out of 10 times. They know I'm not falling for it is how I take it....
  
  The process/thoughts i'm using and the situations are all complex and unique and could take up to 8 pages to explain.
  My last point would be this. There is nothing in the rule book that says I have to stop a match on a tapout. The word tapout isn't in the nfhs rule book I believe. Safety is first and foremost but when something like this is and has been abused so much... it is a tough situation to be in. I will look for the tapout issue furtherin the rules book and for it in the scenario booklet tonight. I may have skipped over it so I will take full blame for that if I have and change my calls if that is the case.
• bonelizzard

  once again Jmar... you're the minority with the officials.. I agree w/you. Of those 5x I've seen this, this year, not 1 official called the fall.. It was apparent to ALL that the kid was tapping out to avoid the fall..
• Con_Alma

  Jmar25;656438 wrote:... When I hear a groan or tapout...ect... I look for any infractions.... If none are seen... I reassure the down man it is legal and things are fine so far. Most of which stop any complaing 9 out of 10 times. They know I'm not falling for it is how I take it....
  
  ....

  This is a sign of a quality official, communicating in a professional way what he is seeing and what he is expecting from the competitors. I appreciate that. I will never concede, however, that a pin should be called if one does not exist...be it 1 centimeter or 6 inches away. With regards to your offering that there is much more relating to the each of the cases you are referring to I must defer to your professional experience in those respective instances. I was only commenting on the details offered above.
  
  In addition, I agree with you in that I have not seen the specific words "tap-out" in the book. I've certainly been have wrong before and probably will be again, however. I do believe that crying out may be a different story.
• Con_Alma

  bonelizzard;656449 wrote:once again Jmar... you're the minority with the officials.. I agree w/you. Of those 5x I've seen this, this year, not 1 official called the fall.. It was apparent to ALL that the kid was tapping out to avoid the fall..

  
  Although it's frustrating a fall cannot be called simply because a kid is "tapping out" in an attempt to avoid it.
• bonelizzard

  Con_Alma;656455 wrote:Although it's frustrating a fall cannot be called simply because a kid is "tapping out" in an attempt to avoid it.

  
  I guess that's up for interpretation by the official.. That's why there needs to be a rule change..
• Con_Alma

  bonelizzard;656462 wrote:I guess that's up for interpretation by the official.. That's why there needs to be a rule change..

  No, I disagree. There's no interpretation involved from a rules perspective. A fall is clearly defined in the rule book and there's nothing with regards to a fall existing when a kid calls out or taps out in order to avoid it.
  
  I agree a rule change may be in order.
• queencitybuckeye

  Is there any reference to "tapping out" in the rules? If not, the ref should do nothing in reaction to it.
• Con_Alma

  queencitybuckeye;656470 wrote:Is there any reference to "tapping out" in the rules? If not, the ref should do nothing in reaction to it.

  
  I don't believe there is.